Artec truss and gussets

2

2trackin

New member
I picked some up for the d44. Plan to remove the the axle for best access to clean up and weld. I personally wont be doing the welding, although I have done alot myself. I just dont have the equipment, so a friend of mine will be doing it for me.
Has anyone else done these and have any helpful advice. Other than the obvious welding no no's.
For anyone that is unaware, this is what I bought. Well, just the truss and gussets, not the trackbar mount.
armor3.jpg
 
NFRs2000NYC

NFRs2000NYC

Caught the Bug
I am no expert on axles or welding, but the one common thing I keep reading is to go slow....real slow as to not heat up the axle to the point of warping.
 
Majik

Majik

Member
Just did mine myself. Including the rear. It really is nicely made by artec and the cuts are very precise. I sleeved the front first with an Evo setup including their control arm mount skids and C-gussets. So with approx 0.5" thick axle tubes, when the artec truss was welded, warpage was much less likely. That's about as stout as I can build a D44! :) I really do like how the upper control arm mount on the passenger side is so much stronger now with that truss welded all around it. My advice is to remember to use a torch to preheat the cast center section when you weld to it. It's just easy insurance.
 
Majik

Majik

Member
Oh, and don't forget to double check or just replace your inner axle seals. The ones just outside the carrier bearings. If you heat the casting too much, you can damage the seal. I didn't remove mine but monitored them throughout the process and they only got mildly warm.
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
Good luck. I personally wouldn't have wasted my money on a truss especially being that I have seen more axle BENT because of them than not. You can take all the time in the world and have the most experienced welder doing the work but even at that, I only know a few in the industry who know how to do it right and even at that, it's a best guess at best.
 
2

2trackin

New member
Thanks for the info Majik.
wayoflife said:
Good luck. I personally wouldn't have wasted my money on a truss especially being that I have seen more axle BENT because of them than not. You can take all the time in the world and have the most experienced welder doing the work but even at that, I only know a few in the industry who know how to do it right and even at that, it's a best guess at best.
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Why would it be more likely to bend? I'm not doubting you. But I only assume it would strengthen the tube. I do understand that often when beefing one thing up stresses just move to the next weakest link.
I figured the truss was cheap enough, it it helped some, it's worth it. Was going with gussets either way.
I'm a pretty might wheeler, we don't have a whole lot for Rocks here in Michigan. Most things we wheel have a bit of give. I just wanted a little more peace of mind while on the trail.
Did I mention I just hit 3000 miles today. Woot!

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wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
2trackin said:
Why would it be more likely to bend? I'm not doubting you. But I only assume it would strengthen the tube. I do understand that often when beefing one thing up stresses just move to the next weakest link.
I figured the truss was cheap enough, it it helped some, it's worth it. Was going with gussets either way.
I'm a pretty might wheeler, we don't have a whole lot for Rocks here in Michigan. Most things we wheel have a bit of give. I just wanted a little more peace of mind while on the trail.
Did I mention I just hit 3000 miles today. Woot!
Click to expand...

Oh, it'll help prevent your axle tube from bending more but, the act of welding them on will more than likely cause them to bend during install. As the member piginajeep, he's got a truss on his front axle and it was installed by a very well known shop here in SoCal but still, it got bent and noticablly so during install. Like I said, there are thing you can do to help mitigate this but, I only know of a few shops that know how to do it well and even at that, it's still a best guess at best.
 
H8MUD

H8MUD

New member
I had mine done on my D30, had a pre-alignment check before/after and measurements were the same. Mine was tig welded and done without having the axle removed from the Jeep.

Have there been any axle failures on axles with the axle truss installed? Been searching and haven't found any yet. Would like to know and if mine fails, I'll be posting about it.

Picture was a couple days after it was installed...that's why it looks shinny.

 
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Majik

Majik

Member
I think I kinda did something cool with mine to verify that it didn't bend (though I can understand Eddie's point... people underestimate the stresses you can introduce by welding onto structures):

I welded up an alignment jig. Not one attached to the axle. Just a frame with precisely ground pins that were installed to make contact with specific points on the axle. I welded the pins in place before I installed the truss, and then, using feeler gauges and a micrometer, I could measure how much the axle was moving towards or away from the pins after welding pieces of the truss. I think it was a pretty cool idea. I did it in 3 planes (X, Y, Z) so I could monitor bending in all axes. I had no more than a 0.002" change in any measurement before and after truss install. Also, by rechecking your ring and pinion tolerances before and after the welding and verifying no change, you can fairly confidently know that the diff case didn't distort either. Oh, and BTW, I took measurements at the same shop temperature before and after, to minimize temp changing the jig's and axle's expansion :)

The key was slow, alternating welding. Maybe mine was so solid because I sleeved the tubes with the Evo Magnum sleeves first... either way, I think it can be done well. And I've seen 2 bent control arm mounts on non-trussed axles on that passenger side upper, so the truss is nice to address things like that. IMO :)
 
FireWire79

FireWire79

New member
Majik said:
I think I kinda did something cool with mine to verify that it didn't bend (though I can understand Eddie's point... people underestimate the stresses you can introduce by welding onto structures):

I welded up an alignment jig. Not one attached to the axle. Just a frame with precisely ground pins that were installed to make contact with specific points on the axle. I welded the pins in place before I installed the truss, and then, using feeler gauges and a micrometer, I could measure how much the axle was moving towards or away from the pins after welding pieces of the truss. I think it was a pretty cool idea. I did it in 3 planes (X, Y, Z) so I could monitor bending in all axes. I had no more than a 0.002" change in any measurement before and after truss install. Also, by rechecking your ring and pinion tolerances before and after the welding and verifying no change, you can fairly confidently know that the diff case didn't distort either. Oh, and BTW, I took measurements at the same shop temperature before and after, to minimize temp changing the jig's and axle's expansion :)

The key was slow, alternating welding. Maybe mine was so solid because I sleeved the tubes with the Evo Magnum sleeves first... either way, I think it can be done well. And I've seen 2 bent control arm mounts on non-trussed axles on that passenger side upper, so the truss is nice to address things like that. IMO :)
Click to expand...

OMG! You are just as crazy as I wish I could be. Talk about being anal retentive! :beer: I'm not even mad, I'm impressed. I would not have thought of using pins to show any sorts of movement, and by using the proper tools you are ensuring that you are getting the best possible results. And monitoring shop temperatures, talk about through.

Between this and the amount of effort you have already put in to your big brake research, I can't wait to see the results.
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
BTW, this is a pic of how professionals building an Ultra4 race buggy does it...

proper-truss-install.jpg

And, even at that, it's still just a best guess.

You can go slow and take all the time in the world but, unless you take significant steps to mitigate bending, it won't change the fact that more time than not, you will BEND your axle installing a truss.
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
olram30 said:
that's some tricky stuff. kinda have to guess the preload with jacks.
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Yup. Like I said, it's a best guess. I know there are a lot of people who will swear by their welding talents and really, I don't even question it. All I can say is that everyone I know in the industry, people who do this for a living all know that you will BEND an axle if you install a truss if you fail to take steps to mitigate it. The above photo is the way they would do it.

Of course, I personally wouldn't bother beefing up a factory axle and would rather just save up and get a get a better one. But then, that's just me. :yup:
 
Hellfire

Hellfire

New member
wayoflife said:
Yup. Like I said, it's a best guess. I know there are a lot of people who will swear by their welding talents and really, I don't even question it. All I can say is that everyone I know in the industry, people who do this for a living all know that you will BEND an axle if you install a truss if you fail to take steps to mitigate it. The above photo is the way they would do it.

Of course, I personally wouldn't bother beefing up a factory axle and would rather just save up and get a get a better one. But then, that's just me. :yup:
Click to expand...


I agree...

Without a truss the axle will bend & return to its original position for a while until one to many times & then it's time to replace the axle.

If you add a truss, your making the axle stronger but your also taking any flex out of the axle so once it does bends, it stays that way & its time for a new axle.
 
Majik

Majik

Member
wayoflife said:
You think? I would challenge you to do it again without the sleeves and take all the time you need. :yup:
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If I get a scrap D44 sitting around locally and am bored, I can surely try it :) I love good, comparable evidence! :thumb:

On a separate note, I feel compelled to voice something at this point. A frustrating thing that I've noticed and is kinda disheartening to see is the overwhelming pessimism often displayed by forum members (on any forum) towards those of us 'amateurs' (myself included) who try to tackle a problem themselves that may usually be addressed only by the more experienced members, or those with deeper pockets. When a person, for example, does their own truss, or fabs their own bumper, or simply seems to have been able to persevere and do something themselves that most have to bring their rig to a shop to do, there are always some very blunt, vocal replies that seem to try to either discredit, belittle, or take the fun out of the original post. Instead of the "attaboy! " or "good job" or "that's great to see that you were able to tackle that in your garage!" that is more appropriate, the member is discouraged with a bunch of "I call bullshit on that"-type replies. It's great to share experiences and opinions, but I hate seeing so many pessimistic replies... Us 'amateurs' look up to the guys that have been doing this for a long time, but too often seem to be the target of such replies. Just an observation...
 
OverlanderJK

OverlanderJK

Resident Smartass
Majik said:
If I get a scrap D44 sitting around locally and am bored, I can surely try it :) I love good, comparable evidence! :thumb:

On a separate note, I feel compelled to voice something at this point. A frustrating thing that I've noticed and is kinda disheartening to see is the overwhelming pessimism often displayed by forum members (on any forum) towards those of us 'amateurs' (myself included) who try to tackle a problem themselves that may usually be addressed only by the more experienced members, or those with deeper pockets. When a person, for example, does their own truss, or fabs their own bumper, or simply seems to have been able to persevere and do something themselves that most have to bring their rig to a shop to do, there are always some very blunt, vocal replies that seem to try to either discredit, belittle, or take the fun out of the original post. Instead of the "attaboy! " or "good job" or "that's great to see that you were able to tackle that in your garage!" that is more appropriate, the member is discouraged with a bunch of "I call bullshit on that"-type replies. It's great to share experiences and opinions, but I hate seeing so many pessimistic replies... Us 'amateurs' look up to the guys that have been doing this for a long time, but too often seem to be the target of such replies. Just an observation...
Click to expand...

Get over yourself dude. You want people to bow down to you. Look at your brake and gear install threads.
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
Majik said:
If I get a scrap D44 sitting around locally and am bored, I can surely try it :) I love good, comparable evidence! :thumb:

On a separate note, I feel compelled to voice something at this point. A frustrating thing that I've noticed and is kinda disheartening to see is the overwhelming pessimism often displayed by forum members (on any forum) towards those of us 'amateurs' (myself included) who try to tackle a problem themselves that may usually be addressed only by the more experienced members, or those with deeper pockets. When a person, for example, does their own truss, or fabs their own bumper, or simply seems to have been able to persevere and do something themselves that most have to bring their rig to a shop to do, there are always some very blunt, vocal replies that seem to try to either discredit, belittle, or take the fun out of the original post. Instead of the "attaboy! " or "good job" or "that's great to see that you were able to tackle that in your garage!" that is more appropriate, the member is discouraged with a bunch of "I call bullshit on that"-type replies. It's great to share experiences and opinions, but I hate seeing so many pessimistic replies... Us 'amateurs' look up to the guys that have been doing this for a long time, but too often seem to be the target of such replies. Just an observation...
Click to expand...

Oh come on, REALLY??? :naw:

Now allow me to say something at this point that I feel compelled to voice. A thing I've noticed and is kinda disheartening to see is the overwhelming whining often displayed by forum members (on any forum) toward those of us who "have seen and experienced" problems and try to help other less experienced members from making the same mistakes. You want an "attaboy" or "good job" or "that's great to see that you were able to tackle that in your garage!" go talk to your dad. I'm just sharing what I know and just because you don't like hearing what someone like me might have to say doesn't mean I'm being pessimistic, trying to discourage guys like you or calling "bullshit on that". I agree that it's great to share experiences and opinion but I hate seeing when guys like you don't want to hear those opinions that come from guys that may not agree with yours. Don't think you're so special that I would waste my time targeting you specifically. My only purpose for posting on this thread is to help people understand that they can actually cause the very bending that they are hoping to prevent by installing a truss. Never even said that it couldn't be done, just that it's very difficult to do. I even took the time to show how professionals do it so that they might be able to get an idea of what all is involved to do it right. If you got it on right, good for you! All I was saying that maybe, just maybe it was because of the sleeves you had installed - it was just an observation. :naw:
 
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