Castor and Toe Angles

Y

Yeahright

Member
I need help, I have 4.5inch Synergy springs and AEV drop brackets, I have had a wheel alignment done after installing new ball joints on the tie rod, steering rod and in the Cs. The castor is at 4.1 degrees and the toe was set at 1.0 degree positive(toe in).
I have yet to do the ball joint on the arm that comes off the steering box.
I fitted a new Fox 2.0 steering dampner, and AEV High Steer kit.
The Fox dampner is very hard to compress, is this normal?
The issue I have is the car steers terribly, it swerves all over the road, so I took the steering dampner off and replaced it with the ARB one from the AEV High Steer Kit, this improved things a bit but it still on occasions will swerve over the road.
Has anybody had the same problem? And can somebody tell me what the standard castor and toe angles are.
What castor and toe angles are people using.
 
cozdude

cozdude

Guy with a Red 2-Door
what skirmish said. read over the DIY alignment and that will answer your questions and get you back to spec.

the one thing i would get rid of would be those AEV drop brackets and just get a good set of adjustable control arms instead.
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
Yeahright said:
I need help, I have 4.5inch Synergy springs and AEV drop brackets, I have had a wheel alignment done after installing new ball joints on the tie rod, steering rod and in the Cs. The castor is at 4.1 degrees and the toe was set at 1.0 degree positive(toe in).
I have yet to do the ball joint on the arm that comes off the steering box.
I fitted a new Fox 2.0 steering dampner, and AEV High Steer kit.
The Fox dampner is very hard to compress, is this normal?
The issue I have is the car steers terribly, it swerves all over the road, so I took the steering dampner off and replaced it with the ARB one from the AEV High Steer Kit, this improved things a bit but it still on occasions will swerve over the road.
Has anybody had the same problem? And can somebody tell me what the standard castor and toe angles are.
What castor and toe angles are people using.
Click to expand...

Okay, I see a few things going on here.

1. Your Fox 2.0 steering stabilizer is a pressurized shock and that will provide a PUSHING force on your tie-rod. In other words, this will influence your steering.

2. You said that you've recently installed new ball joints. Assuming they were an aftermarket set like Synergy or Alloy, etc., they will be very tight until they break in and that will cause your steering to feel like it's sticking in one direction or the other.

3. 4.5" of lift is a LOT of lift. Are you running a drag link flip AND a track bar relocation bracket? If not, you really need to as it will help correct your steering geometry and improve handling.

Your caster should be set at about +4° and my write-up that's been linked should help you to figure out what you're at. You do want to make sure that it is set at POSTIVE and NOT negative 4° as that would make a big difference in your handling. You're toe sounds like it could be okay too. Even if it was off and you had too much, it shouldn't cause the kind of handling issues you sound like you're having. As mentioned, you'd want your toe-in to be set at about 1/16" and no more than 1/8". That would be about 2-3 mm for you.
 
olram30

olram30

Not That Kind of Engineer
Yeahright said:
I need help, I have 4.5inch Synergy springs and AEV drop brackets, I have had a wheel alignment done after installing new ball joints on the tie rod, steering rod and in the Cs. The castor is at 4.1 degrees and the toe was set at 1.0 degree positive(toe in).
I have yet to do the ball joint on the arm that comes off the steering box.
I fitted a new Fox 2.0 steering dampner, and AEV High Steer kit.
The Fox dampner is very hard to compress, is this normal?
The issue I have is the car steers terribly, it swerves all over the road, so I took the steering dampner off and replaced it with the ARB one from the AEV High Steer Kit, this improved things a bit but it still on occasions will swerve over the road.
Has anybody had the same problem? And can somebody tell me what the standard castor and toe angles are.
What castor and toe angles are people using.
Click to expand...

What 3" kit did you have before you put on these coils? Did you replace ball joints or tie rod ends? Did the old Fox ss have a Schrader valve on it? "I think that's what it's called". It's your rear track bar raised our a drop bracket? Just curious about your rear roll center.
 
Y

Yeahright

Member
wayoflife said:
Okay, I see a few things going on here.

1. Your Fox 2.0 steering stabilizer is a pressurized shock and that will provide a PUSHING force on your tie-rod. In other words, this will influence your steering.

2. You said that you've recently installed new ball joints. Assuming they were an aftermarket set like Synergy or Alloy, etc., they will be very tight until they break in and that will cause your steering to feel like it's sticking in one direction or the other.

3. 4.5" of lift is a LOT of lift. Are you running a drag link flip AND a track bar relocation bracket? If not, you really need to as it will help correct your steering geometry and improve handling.

Your caster should be set at about +4° and my write-up that's been linked should help you to figure out what you're at. You do want to make sure that it is set at POSTIVE and NOT negative 4° as that would make a big difference in your handling. You're toe sounds like it could be okay too. Even if it was off and you had too much, it shouldn't cause the kind of handling issues you sound like you're having. As mentioned, you'd want your toe-in to be set at about 1/16" and no more than 1/8". That would be about 2-3 mm for you.
Click to expand...

Eddie,
I had read of your write up and I did clear a few things up, I will be getting adjustable control arms ASAP, it all comes down to finances (or lack there of).
I have changed the Fox stabiliser for an ARB one and that helped a bit, I have a drag link flip and track bar relocation brackets.
I did replace all the ball joints except for the one on the pitman arm, which I will be doing soon.
I believe that the toe is set to 1mm so I will increase that a bit.
As we are not able to use hydro assist, what is a good stabiliser to use, do you think the ARB will be OK?
And when money permits I will be getting rid of the Synergy Springs and getting some EVO Plush Rides.
I will have to stick it out for a bit longer and wait for the ball joints to break in, they have only done about 1000km.
Thank you and the others for the advice.

Yeahright
 
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ERAUGrad04

ERAUGrad04

Caught the Bug
Yeahright said:
Eddie,
I had read of your write up and I did clear a few things up, I will be getting adjustable control arms ASAP, it all comes down yo finances (or lack there of).
I have changed the Fox stabiliser for an ARB one and that helped a bit, I have a drag link flip and track bar relocation brackets.
I did replace all the ball joints except for the one on the pitman arm, which I will be doing soon.
I believe that the toe is set to 1mm so I will increase that a bit.
As we are not able to use hydro assist, what is a good stabiliser to use, do you think the ARB will be OK?
And when money permits I will be getting rid of the Synergy Springs and getting some EVO Plush Rides.
I will have to stick it out for a bit longer and wait for the ball joints to break in, they have only done about 1000km.
Thank you and the others for the advice.

Yeahright
Click to expand...

Just to clarify components here, you mention ball joints and pitman arm in the same sentence. Ball joints are on your knuckles and would usually be replaced with something like Dynatrac ProSteers or Synergy units. The joints at the end of your tie rods are tie rod joints. Is the joint on your drag link bad?

Just for a comparison, I installed a 3.5 AEV lift along with the drop brackets, Synergy track bar and brace, Fox ATS St and Dynatrac ProSteers and I could not be happier with how it handles.

As Eddie mentioned, your caster and toe sound really close and *shouldn't* be the source of your issue.

Good luck!
 
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2

2007blackJk

Member
You replaced the 4 knuckle ball joints
Or tie rod ends ?

I personally prefer .09 per side on toe (.18 total toe)

The stab you installed is fine.
 
Y

Yeahright

Member
ERAUGrad04 said:
Just to clarify components here, you mention ball joints and pitman arm in the same sentence. Ball joints are on your knuckles and would usually be replaced with something like Dynatrac ProSteers or Synergy units. The joints at the end of your tie rods are tie rod joints. Is the joint on your drag link bad?

Just for a comparison, I installed a 3.5 AEV lift along with the drop brackets, Synergy track bar and brace, Fox ATS St and Dynatrac ProSteers and I could not be happier with how it handles.

As Eddie mentioned, your caster and toe sound really close and *shouldn't* be the source of your issue.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm hearing ya, if may need to clarify, in Australia we call all the joints other than universal joints ball joints, so I have replaced the ball joints and all the rod joints except for the one on the pitman arm end of the draglink, this will be getting replaced soon, the ball joints I used on the knuckles are Crown brand, I know they are not the best but at $320.00 for both sides I could not afford Dynatrac ProSteers and it was too late when I found someone over here to get the Synergy ones, because we did not find that they needed replacing until the car was apart, and being a daily driver I could not wait three days for the Synergys to arrive, the rod joint on the pitman arm is not that bad but I'm going to replace it just to eliminate it from the equation.
 
Y

Yeahright

Member
olram30 said:
What 3" kit did you have before you put on these coils? Did you replace ball joints or tie rod ends? Did the old Fox ss have a Schrader valve on it? "I think that's what it's called". It's your rear track bar raised our a drop bracket? Just curious about your rear roll center.
Click to expand...

I just had 3" king springs, a popular brand over here, I have an AEV high steer kit in the front and Synergy track bar bracket in the rear, my old stabiliser was a Synergy one, and It got a little bit bent
 
olram30

olram30

Not That Kind of Engineer
What tires are you running and how much pressure? Some directional tires have a pull. Everything else sounds ok.
Also were all control arms and track bars torqued at ride height?
 
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Y

Yeahright

Member
olram30 said:
What tires are you running and how much pressure? Some directional tires have a pull. Everything else sounds ok.
Also were all control arms and track bars torqued at ride height?
Click to expand...

Running 35x12.5x17 Cooper STT, 35 psi, standard control arms
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, I'll go back to the fact that some of what you are feeling is a result of your new Crown ball joints that you installed on your knuckles. Until they break in, they will be tight and provide the sensation that they are holding your steering in the direction they were last in. This can cause you to feel like your Jeep is wandering. Regarding your OME stabilizer, if I recall, all their shocks are gas charged and will extend by itself. This too will cause a push in your steering and it is why I prefer factory stabilizers or old school hydro stabilizers. I'd recommend that you remove it reinstall your factory stabilizer if you have it or try running without one altogether to see if that helps.
 
Y

Yeahright

Member
wayoflife said:
Okay, I'll go back to the fact that some of what you are feeling is a result of your new Crown ball joints that you installed on your knuckles. Until they break in, they will be tight and provide the sensation that they are holding your steering in the direction they were last in. This can cause you to feel like your Jeep is wandering. Regarding your OME stabilizer, if I recall, all their shocks are gas charged and will extend by itself. This too will cause a push in your steering and it is why I prefer factory stabilizers or old school hydro stabilizers. I'd recommend that you remove it reinstall your factory stabilizer if you have it or try running without one altogether to see if that helps.
Click to expand...

Are the Crown any good?
I do not have the original stabilizer and I have run around with off a couple of times. The Fox stabilizer made the issue feel much worse, probably because of how strong it is, the OME one is better.
You are correct the steering feels like it holding, it's a horrible sensation, I will have to put up with it and see if they loosen up after a while. How many miles (kilometres) do you think it should take for them to break in?
 
olram30

olram30

Not That Kind of Engineer
Yeahright said:
Are the Crown any good?
I do not have the original stabilizer and I have run around with off a couple of times. The Fox stabilizer made the issue feel much worse, probably because of how strong it is, the OME one is better.
You are correct the steering feels like it holding, it's a horrible sensation, I will have to put up with it and see if they loosen up after a while. How many miles (kilometres) do you think it should take for them to break in?
Click to expand...

If you got the hd crown ball joints, they are basically the same thing as synergy or alloy usa ball joints, just cost less. All are a metal on metal ball joint. Keep them greased and they should be fine.
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
Yeahright said:
Are the Crown any good?
I do not have the original stabilizer and I have run around with off a couple of times. The Fox stabilizer made the issue feel much worse, probably because of how strong it is, the OME one is better.
You are correct the steering feels like it holding, it's a horrible sensation, I will have to put up with it and see if they loosen up after a while. How many miles (kilometres) do you think it should take for them to break in?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, the Crown's area great and as mentioned, exactly the same thing as everything else with the exception of ProSteers. Just keep them greased and drive your Jeep around. Not sure exactly how long it'll take to break in but it'll happen sooner than later.
 
Y

Yeahright

Member
wayoflife said:
Oh yeah, the Crown's area great and as mentioned, exactly the same thing as everything else with the exception of ProSteers. Just keep them greased and drive your Jeep around. Not sure exactly how long it'll take to break in but it'll happen sooner than later.
Click to expand...

Cool, thanks heaps I'll keep you posted
 
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