Quick toe alignment question

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

Just got my new tires put on and went up from the stock 265s to a set of 295s. I just checked my toe to see if it close enough to still drive before messing with it and by my best judgment it looks like I am 1/8" toe out (front wider than back). Does that make sense? I feel like if it was set right before I would get more toe in than stock with bigger tires?

I'm also having to measure pretty low on the tire due to the control arms being in the way not sure if that would mess up the measurements at all?

It's not my DD and I should be tearing it apart to put in new coils and shocks this weekend but I still would like to drive it to work if able. I just don't want to get funky wear on brand new tires. Any thoughts?

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WJCO · Nov 29, 2016

Measurements that low will be off. You need to be as close to the back center of the tire as possible. As you go lower, it will be closer together ever so slightly (with a normal toe in situation). And toe should be 1/8" toe-in. I use chalk or a silver marker when I do mine just so I don't lose my spot.

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

WJCO said:
Measurements that low will be off. You need to be as close to the back center of the tire as possible. As you go lower, it will be closer together ever so slightly (with a normal toe in situation). And toe should be 1/8" toe-in. I use chalk or a silver marker when I do mine just so I don't lose my spot.

Yeah that's what I figured going lower will cause the measurements to be off but I can't get any higher on the tire without hitting the control arms to measure the back center. I used the same height on the tire for front and back using the same nub on each tire for reference.

Not too sure why it would be toe out right now though if anything adding a larger diameter tire should make it more toe in.

But being that it is 1/8" toe out low on the tires makes me think it's even more toe out at the center and makes me think I shouldn't drive it too far before messing with it.

Maybe I'll look into getting one of those toe measurement tools

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QuicksilverJK · Nov 29, 2016

I've always used 1/8" toe in as my goal. What I have wondered but not put too much effort into is figuring out how much difference there is based on tire diameter. Basically going from 32" to 37" to achieve 1/8" toe in would require less angle because you are 5" further from center of steering.

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wayoflife · Nov 29, 2016

desertrunner said:
Just got my new tires put on and went up from the stock 265s to a set of 295s. I just checked my toe to see if it close enough to still drive before messing with it and by my best judgment it looks like I am 1/8" toe out (front wider than back). Does that make sense? I feel like if it was set right before I would get more toe in than stock with bigger tires?

I'm also having to measure pretty low on the tire due to the control arms being in the way not sure if that would mess up the measurements at all?

It's not my DD and I should be tearing it apart to put in new coils and shocks this weekend but I still would like to drive it to work if able. I just don't want to get funky wear on brand new tires. Any thoughts?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using WAYALIFE mobile app

Installing new tires will NOT change your toe. In fact, on a JK, nothing short of installing a new tie-rod or having a bent one will change your toe and in the later case, your toe would be too far in. If you haven't installed a new tie-rod, I would double check your measurement as there is no way it would be out.

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

QuicksilverJK said:
I've always used 1/8" toe in as my goal. What I have wondered but not put too much effort into is figuring out how much difference there is based on tire diameter. Basically going from 32" to 37" to achieve 1/8" toe in would require less angle because you are 5" further from center of steering.

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Right thats my thought too when you go up in tire size the toe will change since its further from center but my toe right now is 1/8" toe OUT which would mean they were somewhere slightly less than 1/8" toe out to begin with.

wayoflife · Nov 29, 2016

desertrunner said:
Right thats my thought too when you go up in tire size the toe will change since its further from center but my toe right now is 1/8" toe OUT which would mean they were somewhere slightly less than 1/8" toe out to begin with.

1/8" isn't bad but about 1/16" toe-in is more what you should be wanting. The whole point of having toe-in is that on a rear wheel drive vehicle or primarily so, the front wheels will pull outward a bit and be more parallel when driving. If you go in too much, you will still have excessive wear on your tires.

Again, if you did not change your tie-rod, there is NO WAY for your toe to be out.

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

wayoflife said:
Installing new tires will NOT change your toe. In fact, on a JK, nothing short of installing a new tie-rod or having a bent one will change your toe and in the later case, your toe would be too far in. If you haven't installed a new tie-rod, I would double check your measurement as there is no way it would be out.

If your toe was set at 1/8" toe in with say 30" tires and then you put 35s on it your toe would HAVE to go even more in just based on geometry due to the angle being the same but an extra 2.5" from center line right? I'm not tracking on how installing bigger tires wouldn't change toe?

I will for sure go re measure to double check but I'm still not going to be able to measure right at center on the tire since the control arms are in the way. Not sure if the amount of difference from the center is going to make THAT big of a difference but it has to make some.

Edit: and It still the stock tie rod, completely stock suspension just new tires and wheels

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QuicksilverJK · Nov 29, 2016

desertrunner said:
Right thats my thought too when you go up in tire size the toe will change since its further from center but my toe right now is 1/8" toe OUT which would mean they were somewhere slightly less than 1/8" toe out to begin with.

Your actual toe in will not change, as it is an angle that you are actually measuring. What I was saying is to get the proper angle with larger diameter tires 1/8" might not be an appropriate number. DIY alignment is great, just curious what the machine would show after done. Either way toe out is no good. And as WAYALIFE stated a bent tie rod would give you excessive toe in.

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desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

wayoflife said:
1/8" isn't bad but about 1/16" toe-in is more what you should be wanting. The whole point of having toe-in is that on a rear wheel drive vehicle or primarily so, the front wheels will pull outward a bit and be more parallel when driving. If you go in too much, you will still have excessive wear on your tires.

Again, if you did not change your tie-rod, there is NO WAY for your toe to be out.

Yeah its still the stock tie rod and from what I can tell it hasn't ever been messed with but the jeep was bought used so who knows if someone else messed with it.
I agree that if the toe was set in before there is NO WAY it would be now out. But if it was set improperly before and now is even more out that's what I'm worried about

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wayoflife · Nov 29, 2016

desertrunner said:
If your toe was set at 1/8" toe in with say 30" tires and then you put 35s on it your toe would HAVE to go even more in just based on geometry due to the angle being the same but an extra 2.5" from center line right? I'm not tracking on how installing bigger tires wouldn't change toe?

First off, your toe-in from the factory is about 1/16" - NOT 1/8". Second, you are assuming that the center line of a 35x12.50 will simply be extending from the same line as a 30x9.50.

Edit: and It still the stock tie rod, completely stock suspension just new tires and wheels

With that said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for your toe to be out just by installing new tires. Unless you have adjusted it out in the past, your toe should be EXACTLY THE SAME.

QuicksilverJK · Nov 29, 2016

Are you measuring off of a centerline? I scribe a line by rolling the tire with the tip of a pry bar held against the tread balanced on a jack stand. This gives you a solid reference point that doesn't change on either side of the tire. I know people who use the edge of the tread as a reference, but get varying results.

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desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

wayoflife said:
First off, your toe-in from the factory is about 1/16" - NOT 1/8". Second, you are assuming that the center line of a 35x12.50 will simply be extending from the same line as a 30x9.50.

With that said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for your toe to be out just by installing new tires. Unless you have adjusted it out in the past, your toe should be EXACTLY THE SAME.

Yeah that is exactly what I was assuming haha. This was my thought process. They are both mounted to the wheel hubs as a pivot point and the tie rod is setting an angle difference between the two knuckles. So when you get bigger tires they are still mounted at the same angle as before but are now longer per say from the center pivot thus making the front of the new tires closer together than old tires? But if I'm understanding what your saying, your saying the tie rod isn't creating an angle between the tires? And that the center line of the the new vs old tires won't change with tire size?

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wayoflife · Nov 29, 2016

desertrunner said:
Yeah that is exactly what I was assuming haha. This was my thought process. They are both mounted to the wheel hubs as a pivot point and the tie rod is setting an angle difference between the two knuckles. So when you get bigger tires they are still mounted at the same angle as before but are now longer per say from the center pivot thus making the front of the new tires closer together than old tires? But if I'm understanding what your saying, your saying the tie rod isn't creating an angle between the tires? And that the center line of the the new vs old tires won't change with tire size?

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I'll make this simple for you. Remove your tires and measure your brake rotors in front and then the back. Assuming your tie rod is straight and you haven't installed a new one, the measurement you get is your toe as set from the factory. Unless you changed something, it should be toe in and about 1/16".

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

Just for shits and giggles I drew a rough sketch of what's in my brain. So if the middle line being the tie rod stays at the same length but the outer lines being the tires get bigger but still at the same angle

wouldn't #2 now be shorter than #1? Or am I just completely wrong on how the tie rod sets toes? (Which now I'm feeling that is the case haha)

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WJCO · Nov 29, 2016

I think I see where the confusion is. The toe angle doesn't change with tire change, it can't. But yes the distance in front and in rear of the tires could slightly unless your toe angle is a perfect zero. Any toe in means imaginary lines aren't parallel, so measuring the distance between lines at different spots will yield different results. A 30 inch tire with 1/16" toe in compared to a 40" tire with no adjustment means the front of the 40 inch tires will be 5 inches further forward on the imaginary lines and slightly closer together compared to the 30s in the original location. Like the blue lines in the picture. Is that what you're trying to say?

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

WJCO said:
I think I see where the confusion is. The toe angle doesn't change with tire change, it can't. But yes the distance in front and in rear of the tires could slightly unless your toe angle is a perfect zero. Any toe in means imaginary lines aren't parallel, so measuring the distance between lines at different spots will yield different results. A 30 inch tire with 1/16" toe in compared to a 40" tire with no adjustment means the front of the 40 inch tires will be 5 inches further forward on the imaginary lines and slightly closer together compared to the 30s in the original location. Like the blue lines in the picture. Is that what you're trying to say?

View attachment 232543

YES that is exactly my thought process haha

desertrunner · Nov 29, 2016

wayoflife said:
I'll make this simple for you. Remove your tires and measure your brake rotors in front and then the back. Assuming your tie rod is straight and you haven't installed a new one, the measurement you get is your toe as set from the factory. Unless you changed something, it should be toe in and about 1/16".

No adjustments made to my tie rod its totally stock and is not bent, so what your saying is the difference in the break rotor will be 1/16" from the factory i totally get that but when you measure from the outside of the tire in the front they would be closer than 1/16" based on the fact that you are measuring 1/2 a tire diameter away from the break rotors

wayoflife · Nov 29, 2016

If you've ever used a toe measuring tool, you'd know that it measures angles - NOT inches. Bigger/wider tires require the use of wheels with less backspacing but the angle that they need to be in will always be the same. Installing bigger tires CANNOT cause your toe to go out - it is impossible.

QuicksilverJK · Nov 29, 2016

desertrunner said:
Just for shits and giggles I drew a rough sketch of what's in my brain. So if the middle line being the tie rod stays at the same length but the outer lines being the tires get bigger but still at the same angle View attachment 232542 wouldn't #2 now be shorter than #1? Or am I just completely wrong on how the tie rod sets toes? (Which now I'm feeling that is the case haha)

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You are correct here. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in this thread. With basic geometry the toe in "spec I found on the internet" (no guarantee of accuracy) is .20deg toe in. Less than 1/4 of 1 degree toe in measured at the brake rotor would not be easy to measure with a tape measure. Extend that measuring point 15" further from the center point and not the distance has increased thus making it measurable.

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