Desperate Call for Help

zeddjb · Jul 9, 2017

Hey everyone!! It's been a while since I posted anything on here. I'm looking for some help with my 2012 JK Rubi. I recently replaced the front drive shaft from stock to a JE Reel 1310 Heavy Duty CV from NorthRidge 4x4. The reason for the replacement was to resolve an issue with some "clackity clack" type sound which I thought was the front joint failing. (I have had that in the past so I figured that was the issue)

Upon receiving the new shaft, I removed the old (stock) one and inspected it, to find the boot still intact and just fine...Okay then...Replaced anyways because why not. The "clackity clack" sound still remains and seems like its getting worse (read: louder). Also, at speeds of 65+ MPH, there is a really terrible vibration under my feet. Having it in 4-Hi/Lo doesn't seem to make a difference with the sound. Also, the sound seems to start right about 5 to 10 MPH; whether I am accelerating or decelerating. When accelerating the sounds is drown out by the engine and the tires.

I called NorthRidge 4x4, thinking the shaft must be out of balance from manufacturer; the manufacture sent me a new one but all the same issues persist. I am currently running with no front drive shaft and the Jeep drives as expected. No sounds, no vibrations (had it past 80+ MPH).

Things I have tried and done:

Replaced the AT+4 transfer case oil. No shavings or any foreign material found on magnets. Oil was a bit discolored but not bad by any standards.
Replaced the front (and rear) diff fluid. Front done twice and used new fluid each time. Small amount of shavings on magnets.
Had front diff cover off to look at gears and it looks normal.

I'm really lost as to what the issue is. One shop I took it to said that I need to drop my transfer case lower because the drive shaft is at a weird angle. I thought that was the point of the double cardan drive shaft was to help assist with geometry issues.(maybe my assumption isn't accurate?)

Some Relative Specs:

2012 Jeep JK Rubicon
37 inch AT tires
4 inch suspension lift kit; no body lift

Thanks for reading all of this babble. I hope something makes sense to someone. Let me know if anyone has any additional questions I can answer. Thanks everyone!!

BobNH · Jul 9, 2017

The double cardan does help, yes, but the pinion yoke has to have the same angle as the shaft. If you lifted it 4" and did not adjust the front pinion yoke angle, it could explain why you have had to replace the joint before, and why they said it is at a weird angle.

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jeeeep · Jul 9, 2017

are you still on the stock control arms? If so, there's your issue - you need to adjust the caster angle - even with a double cardon DS

you'll need at minimum front adjustable upper control arms to correct the caster angle to spec.

this will help - setting Caster section

https://wayalife.com/showthread.php...nt-End-Alignment?p=42391&viewfull=1#post42391

edit: I see from your profile you have both upper and lower adjustable control arms - read the above article to help you get the front at the proper angle

zeddjb · Jul 9, 2017

BobNH said:
The double cardan does help, yes, but the pinion yoke has to have the same angle as the shaft. If you lifted it 4" and did not adjust the front pinion yoke angle, it could explain why you have had to replace the joint before, and why they said it is at a weird angle.

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Thanks BobNH for the reply. That makes sense now that you mention it.

Is that simply adjusting the front lower control arms? I did a measurement off the yoke and I'm at 98 degrees down; 8 degrees from 90. Although, I'm not sure what the angle should be then in this case. The instruction that came with the drive shaft provide a diagram but not measurements and the diagram says that the axle should be pointed up and not at 90 like a traditional drive shaft.

JKDream · Jul 9, 2017

zeddjb said:
Thanks BobNH for the reply. That makes sense now that you mention it.

Is that simply adjusting the front lower control arms? I did a measurement off the yoke and I'm at 98 degrees down; 8 degrees from 90. Although, I'm not sure what the angle should be then in this case. The instruction that came with the drive shaft provide a diagram but not measurements and the diagram says that the axle should be pointed up and not at 90 like a traditional drive shaft.

That is way off if you aren't running an aftermarket housing. The pinion also shouldn't be pointed down.
Pinion angle should be 2-3 degrees on a lifted JK at best with the stock housing.
If anything 2-3 degrees caster may be all you are able to achieve with a four inch lift and stock geometry housing.

BobNH · Jul 9, 2017

If the writeup zedd posted does not work, here is what your driveline angle should look like. Mostly. Note the pinion yoke is in line with the shaft itself. At least this us my knowledge of a double cardan setup. I could be wrong.

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jeeeep · Jul 9, 2017

zeddjb said:
Thanks BobNH for the reply. That makes sense now that you mention it.

Is that simply adjusting the front lower control arms? I did a measurement off the yoke and I'm at 98 degrees down; 8 degrees from 90. Although, I'm not sure what the angle should be then in this case. The instruction that came with the drive shaft provide a diagram but not measurements and the diagram says that the axle should be pointed up and not at 90 like a traditional drive shaft.

https://wayalife.com/showthread.php...nt-End-Alignment?p=42391&viewfull=1#post42391

zeddjb · Jul 9, 2017

jeeeep said:
are you still on the stock control arms? If so, there's your issue - you need to adjust the caster angle - even with a double cardon DS

you'll need at minimum front adjustable upper control arms to correct the caster angle to spec.

this will help - setting Caster section

https://wayalife.com/showthread.php...nt-End-Alignment?p=42391&viewfull=1#post42391

edit: I see from your profile you have both upper and lower adjustable control arms - read the above article to help you get the front at the proper angle

I should have included that in the specs that I do have Currie front and rear control arms. I read through the article from Eddie. I'll work on the adjustment and see what I can come up with. Thanks for all the replies.

WJCO · Jul 9, 2017

BobNH said:
The double cardan does help, yes, but the pinion yoke has to have the same angle as the shaft. If you lifted it 4" and did not adjust the front pinion yoke angle, it could explain why you have had to replace the joint before, and why they said it is at a weird angle.

Sent from my SM-N910V using WAYALIFE mobile app

BobNH said:
If the writeup zedd posted does not work, here is what your driveline angle should look like. Mostly. Note the pinion yoke is in line with the shaft itself. At least this us my knowledge of a double cardan setup. I could be wrong.
View attachment 267300

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This will likely solve your problem.

AZ Explorer · Jul 9, 2017

BobNH said:
If the writeup zedd posted does not work, here is what your driveline angle should look like. Mostly. Note the pinion yoke is in line with the shaft itself. At least this us my knowledge of a double cardan setup. I could be wrong.
View attachment 267300

Sent from my SM-N910V using WAYALIFE mobile app

This works for the rear axle housing. The problem with the front is if someone has a stock axle housing, they can't simply line the pinion up with the driveshaft. Steering would be crazy out of whack and would have a lot of wandering. At best it is a compromise between eliminating vibration and and keeping some degree of good steering. My concern if I'm understanding the OP, is the noise was happening with a stock drive shaft. That shouldn't be an issue with that shaft unless it's bad. (Although now that he has the D/C shaft he will have to bring the pinion up as much as he can to get it closer than it is.) Being that it happens with both styles of shafts but not when the shafts are out, I wonder about the front transfer case bearing, especially as the noise is felt right under his feet. It would disappear for the most part with no resistance from the shaft being attached. Again, the pinion angle still needs to be addressed because it is a bit of a problem at 4 inches of lift, and may still be the problem, or contributing to it. I'm just not convinced that pinion angle is totally the issue yet based on the description of the problem, and just aligning the pinion on his current setup will cause other issues.

WJCO · Jul 9, 2017

AZ Explorer said:
This works for the rear axle housing. The problem with the front is if someone has a stock axle housing, they can't simply line the pinion up with the driveshaft. Steering would be crazy out of whack and would have a lot of wandering. At best it is a compromise between eliminating vibration and and keeping some degree of good steering. My concern if I'm understanding the OP, is the noise was happening with a stock drive shaft. That shouldn't be an issue with that shaft unless it's bad. (Although now that he has the D/C shaft he will have to bring the pinion up as much as he can to get it closer than it is.) Being that it happens with both styles of shafts but not when the shafts are out, I wonder about the front transfer case bearing, especially as the noise is felt right under his feet. It would disappear for the most part with no resistance from the shaft being attached. Again, the pinion angle still needs to be addressed because it is a bit of a problem at 4 inches of lift, and may still be the problem, or contributing to it. I'm just not convinced that pinion angle is totally the issue yet based on the description of the problem, and just aligning the pinion on his current setup will cause other issues.

Agreed. However being he has 4 adjustable arms, and problem started after new shaft and problem is gone with shaft removed, if I were in his shoes, I would set the pinion perfect and drive just to see, regardless of caster. If this fixes vibration and steering sucks, slowly add caster until steering is good with no vibration present and leave it there. Factory 4+ caster balances both, but if you can get away with more caster and no vibrations, do it. The issue is that most DC aftermarket shafts really like seeing pinion angle and driveshaft angle near parallel if possible. Dynatrac has this figured out if you're willing to drop the coin for an upgraded axle

AZ Explorer · Jul 9, 2017

WJCO said:
Agreed. However being he has 4 adjustable arms, and problem started after new shaft and problem is gone with shaft removed, if I were in his shoes, I would set the pinion perfect and drive just to see, regardless of caster. If this fixes vibration and steering sucks, slowly add caster until steering is good with no vibration present and leave it there. Factory 4+ caster balances both, but if you can get away with more caster and no vibrations, do it. The issue is that most DC aftermarket shafts really like seeing pinion angle and driveshaft angle near parallel if possible. Dynatrac has this figured out if you're willing to drop the coin for an upgraded axle

Definitely, this a no cost option to check first and needs to be done anyhow. I read it as he replaced the stock shaft and the problem remained once the D/C shaft was in. May have misunderstood. The Dynatrac Rubi-unlimited housing would be the best longterm solution.

WJCO · Jul 9, 2017

AZ Explorer said:
Definitely, this a no cost option to check first and needs to be done anyhow.

I'm definitely not disagreeing with your post above. I'm just saying, if I were in his shoes, I would do this just for informative purposes. When I swapped my axle, I had a noise rather that a vibration and took these steps. If was a time consuming process, but I learned what did and didn't cause the issue.

AZ Explorer · Jul 9, 2017

WJCO said:
I'm definitely not disagreeing with your post above. I'm just saying, if I were in his shoes, I would do this just for informative purposes. When I swapped my axle, I had a noise rather that a vibration and took these steps. If was a time consuming process, but I learned what did and didn't cause the issue.

Helps get you all Zen with your Jeep too, actually knowing what's going on under there. :yup:

zeddjb · Jul 10, 2017

I took the tires off and put an angle finder on the ball joint as described in the write-up. This is as far as I made it so far; I'll work on it more this week. Here are some pictures that I took. Just eyeing it up, it looks to me like the pinion angle is downward. Based on the write-up and what you folks were saying, I should have an angle of about 4 degrees or so toward the back of the Jeep. This would seem to explain some things for sure. I'm hoping that clackity clack sound also goes away once I fix this angle issue. That is such a terrible sound and very embarrassing and furthermore, something wearing down.

As for the long term fix, I would like some new axles yes; I am saving for them and hopefully next summer.

WJCO · Jul 10, 2017

Your Jeep needs to be level on the ground for an accurate measurement. Also, you need to measure the ground itself and subtract that if it isn't at zero. As far as the noise, post a video so we can hear what you're hearing.

AZ Explorer · Jul 10, 2017

If it looks the same once it's on the ground, you've got some adjusting to do. The pinion is way down and you can even see the springs bowing backwards.

zeddjb · Jul 10, 2017

WJCO said:
Your Jeep needs to be level on the ground for an accurate measurement. Also, you need to measure the ground itself and subtract that if it isn't at zero.

I took the same angle finder and measured the ground from front to back and it was at 0.

WJCO said:
As far as the noise, post a video so we can hear what you're hearing.

I'll try and get something uploaded tomorrow after work.

JKDream · Jul 10, 2017

zeddjb said:
I took the same angle finder and measured the ground from front to back and it was at 0.

I'll try and get something uploaded tomorrow after work.

You have way too much caster for the housing as I alluded to in the first post.
You need to shorten your lower control arms or lengthen the uppers, and sooner than later.
That vibration can take do serious damage to your transfer case to the point of it cracking.
I would really suggest shortening those lowers ASAP before you grenade your driveline.

JKDream · Jul 10, 2017

WJCO said:
Agreed. However being he has 4 adjustable arms, and problem started after new shaft and problem is gone with shaft removed, if I were in his shoes, I would set the pinion perfect and drive just to see, regardless of caster. If this fixes vibration and steering sucks, slowly add caster until steering is good with no vibration present and leave it there. Factory 4+ caster balances both, but if you can get away with more caster and no vibrations, do it. The issue is that most DC aftermarket shafts really like seeing pinion angle and driveshaft angle near parallel if possible. Dynatrac has this figured out if you're willing to drop the coin for an upgraded axle

AZ Explorer said:
Definitely, this a no cost option to check first and needs to be done anyhow. I read it as he replaced the stock shaft and the problem remained once the D/C shaft was in. May have misunderstood. The Dynatrac Rubi-unlimited housing would be the best longterm solution.

You would be lucky to see 4 degrees of caster on a stock housing and no vibrations with that much lift.
His control arms are WAY too long, you can see in the last photo the joint are hanging on by two or three threads at best.
The reason it just started with the shaft is because the stock shaft does not vibrate due to the CV joint.

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