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wayoflife
03-23-2012, 06:27 PM
So, I've been having some conversations about suspension systems and the topic of "rock crawling" versus "overland" came up and I have to say, I have no real idea what building up a Jeep for "overland" or "expedition" wheeling is all about. I mean this in all seriousness but really, what constitutes "overland" anyway? More times than not, when we go wheeling, we plan extended camping trips, wheel across vast stretches of desert and/or mountains of which sometimes require carrying extra gas and water and of course, we always carry a welder and enough gear to not only recover and fix our Jeep with all its unique parts but, also for others with their specific parts. Having said all that, we always try to build up our Jeeps not to be a "rock crawler" or "overland expedition" vehicle per se but, to perform to the best of their ability on and off road - period. In fact, up until a few years ago, we honestly thought that "overland" referred to a Jeep that had a roof rack and a snorkel on it. So, I ask you - here in America, what exactly is "overland" wheeling and, how exactly does a Jeep built up for that differ from any other good Jeep build? Inquiring minds would like to know :yup:

MTG
03-23-2012, 08:12 PM
Built for overland = install an AEV lift?

:cheesy: Sorry I saw the other thread and could not resist.

I am way too much of a noob to know...subscribed to be educated.

Sharkey
03-23-2012, 10:10 PM
I'm not sure what "overland" is supposed to mean either. Particularly here in the states, I think the more appropriate term would be a "wilderness" Jeep. To me, travel in the wilderness requires many things the most important of which are (1) the ability to self-rescue because of the inability to obtain assistance or reach civilization in less than one day's hike and (2) self-sustenance without the need for re-ration or support (food, water, equipment, etc.) from civilization for the period of time traveled.

Depending on your mode of travel, and the topography of what is to be traveled, the gear you bring to satisfy (1) and (2) above will obviously change. I fail to see how having a flip-top tent on the roof of a Jeep makes it more wilderness capable than another Jeep that has a 4-season tent or bivy sack stored in a bag in the back. Actually, I can think of many reasons why the latter would be a MUCH better way to go than the former. (If your Jeep becomes inoperable in the wilderness, it's pretty hard to carry your flip top tent on your back to use as shelter on your multi-day hike out...oh, and there is that whole weight savings thing.) I also fail to see how a Jeep with 35's and a standard lift is somehow more wilderness capable than a Jeep turning 40's with coilovers. The only argument I could see is if the distance traveled is so great that the relative difference in gas mileage becomes an issue which cannot be planned for through preparation (i.e. bringing extra gas). Here in the states though (particularly the lower 48), that problem seems unlikely.

I guess my point is that "overland" has become more of a cliche for a type of look and less of a definition of capabilities. If your Jeep is built to cover the terrain you plan to cover, and you have the ability to fix it and perform self-rescue, then the rest really comes down to what else you throw in the back and what you have between your ears, not how the Jeep was built. Just my .02.

zeddjb
03-23-2012, 10:21 PM
I'm not sure what "overland" is supposed to mean either. Particularly here in the states, I think the more appropriate term would be a "wilderness" Jeep. To me, travel in the wilderness requires many things the most important of which are (1) the ability to self-rescue because of the inability to obtain assistance or reach civilization in less than one day's hike and (2) self-sustenance without the need for re-ration or support (food, water, equipment, etc.) from civilization for the period of time traveled.

Depending on your mode of travel, and the topography of what is to be traveled, the gear you bring to satisfy (1) and (2) above will obviously change. I fail to see how having a flip-top tent on the roof of a Jeep makes it more wilderness capable than another Jeep that has a 4-season tent or bivy sack stored in a bag in the back. Actually, I can think of many reasons why the latter would be a MUCH better way to go than the former. (If your Jeep becomes inoperable in the wilderness, it's pretty hard to carry your flip top tent on your back to use as shelter on your multi-day hike out...oh, and there is that whole weight savings thing.) I also fail to see how a Jeep with 35's and a standard lift is somehow more wilderness capable than a Jeep turning 40's with coilovers. The only argument I could see is if the distance traveled is so great that the relative difference in gas mileage becomes an issue which cannot be planned for through preparation (i.e. bringing extra gas). Here in the states though (particularly the lower 48), that problem seems unlikely.

I guess my point is that "overland" has become more of a cliche for a type of look and less of a definition of capabilities. If your Jeep is built to cover the terrain you plan to cover, and you have the ability to fix it and perform self-rescue, then the rest really comes down to what else you throw in the back and what you have between your ears, not how the Jeep was built. Just my .02.

I think you said it all right there. I live in central WI and let me be the first to say that, we don't really any mountains around here. At least for me, when I want to go wheeling for a while there are tons of forestry roads/trails that can keep me busy. That being said, I built up my Jeep with a cost savings in mind. I don't wheel for a living and don't get paid to wheel and I don't have a lot of money to spend on awesome upgrades, however I have a winch (that covers the self recovery mostly), I carry some tools with me and I have a 4 inch lift kit with nitto mud-grapplers 35x12.5x17. I built my Jeep to get me though the terrain in and around where I live, but if I wanted to take it to more extreme areas of the country like the rubicon, I could do that too.

I agree that "overland" is definitely a cliche and I would argue with anyone who thought differently. :sigh:

JKRay
03-23-2012, 10:30 PM
I always thought overland was jeeps that took on open spaces, like the plains and meadows or like the outback in Australia that is what an overland jeep is to me. Just my :twocents:

Sharkey
03-23-2012, 10:47 PM
I always thought overland was jeeps that took on open spaces, like the plains and meadows or like the outback in Australia that is what an overland jeep is to me. Just my :twocents:

I think your perception is the same as most people's. But it doesn't answer the question posed as to why one type of build (and what that type of build would be exactly) would be more suited for that kind of travel than another type of build. Using WOL's Moby as an example, why is Moby any less suited for travel across open spaces, plains, meadows, or the Outback than another Jeep? I don't think it is, but apparently some people do.

zeddjb
03-23-2012, 10:59 PM
I think your perception is the same as most people's. But it doesn't answer the question posed as to why one type of build (and what that type of build would be exactly) would be more suited for that kind of travel than another type of build. Using WOL's Moby as an example, why is Moby any less suited for travel across open spaces, plains, meadows, or the Outback than another Jeep? I don't think it is, but apparently some people do.


I think it's more capable or just as capable as any other Jeep. Like you said, it's perception thing that people have. There is no rhyme or reason to it, it's just the way people see things differently.

I would be curious to know WOL, how this question came to be. I know you said the topic came up, but was there a valid argument on the topic or was is just, "Hey I heard this somewhere..." kind of thing?

Sharkey
03-23-2012, 11:14 PM
I can't speak for WOL, but I can say I've read numerous comments where people discount advice about lifts on the basis that "they are building an overland Jeep, not a rock crawler" without ever taking the time to explain what they view as a legitimate distinction between the two. If they were talking about purpose built buggies then I might understand the point, but a JKU on coilovers seems every bit as capable to me as an "overlander", if not more so, than any other JKU build.

zeddjb
03-23-2012, 11:19 PM
I can't speak for WOL, but I can say I've read numerous comments where people discount advice about lifts on the basis that "they are building an overland Jeep, not a rock crawler" without ever taking the time to explain what they view as a legitimate distinction between the two. If they were talking about purpose built buggies then I might understand the point, but a JKU on coilovers seems every bit as capable to me as an "overlander", if not more so, than any other JKU build.

Right on!! If there isn't a valid argument then it's just one person's point of view over another.

:cheesy::thumb::thumb:

JKRay
03-24-2012, 01:19 AM
I think your perception is the same as most people's. But it doesn't answer the question posed as to why one type of build (and what that type of build would be exactly) would be more suited for that kind of travel than another type of build. Using WOL's Moby as an example, why is Moby any less suited for travel across open spaces, plains, meadows, or the Outback than another Jeep? I don't think it is, but apparently some people do.

I think really the overland look is exactly that a look nothing more, the suspension is the same as most who rock crawl, tires and more. There really is no difference. Moby for example now that he has the upgraded DTD front and rear is one of the best open land and rock crawling vehicle that can be built same for evo 1. The suspension is made to go fast on flat open country roads and play hard on rocks. Its the best of both worlds the only difference is the look. They both dont have a roof rack, or tent on top of their vehicle, and a snorkel. Besides that there is no difference to me at least.

Just thinking now the overland vehicles started in places like Africa or Australia to keep safe from dangerous animals like lions. The tent on top is to stay safe from snakes, lions and other dangers that can get to them if they were on the ground. The snorkel to cross rivers or creeks without killing the engine. Its really to stay safe from what is surrounding them and get out of crap to get home nothing else.

RDE2ROK
03-24-2012, 02:40 AM
WOW! What a topic. I think it just comes down to what you want to do. I have an RV to trailer my jeep to far away trips. I camp in a campground and wheel the area for 2-3 days. I sleep in my bed,have a shower and a good meal and my own restroom, I am out to enjoy myself and have a good time.Now that being said, I also have a roof rack to pack all the necessary supplies to go on a trip such as the Rubicon Trail. I don't want to be restricted to a certain type of trail.I want my jeep to be flexable. I realy like Rack Crawlin, but also "so called" expidition trails to sight see,explore and just have fun.So it just comes down to your own interpretation. If I want to do it! I want my jeep to take me there! Thats just my thoughts!:idontknow:

GCM 2
03-24-2012, 03:15 AM
Taken directly from "The Overland Journal",which is viewed as the predominant expert source for overlanding

About Overlanding

Overlanding is about exploration, rather than conquering obstacles. While the roads and trails we travel might be rough or technically challenging, they are the means to an end, not the goal itself. The goal is to see and learn about our world, whether on a weekend trip 100 miles from home or a 10,000-mile expedition across another continent. The vehicle and equipment can be simple or extravagant - they, too, are simply means to an end. History, wildlife, culture, scenery, self-sufficiency - these are the rewards of overlanding.


From this definition alone, I can use a compact rental car for overlanding. I have gotten the feeling from guys who build "overland" specific rigs :thinking: that there is some mystical thing that separates their "overland rig" from my build, which they consider to be a rock crawler.

This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go. I'll go with my build. And one last thing, we use to call it camping. Thanks for your time.

MTG
03-24-2012, 03:26 AM
This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go...And one last thing, we use to call it camping.

Good stuff right there!

Sharkey
03-24-2012, 03:31 AM
This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go. I'll go with my build. And one last thing, we use to call it camping. Thanks for your time.

Yep...that pretty much sums it up.

RDE2ROK
03-24-2012, 03:33 AM
This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go. I'll go with my build. And one last thing, we use to call it camping. Thanks for your time.

:thumb: Well Said!:thumb:

zeddjb
03-24-2012, 03:53 AM
From this definition alone, I can use a compact rental car for overlanding. I have gotten the feeling from guys who build "overland" specific rigs :thinking: that there is some mystical thing that separates their "overland rig" from my build, which they consider to be a rock crawler.

This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go. I'll go with my build. And one last thing, we use to call it camping. Thanks for your time.

Good stuff GCM!! :cheesy:

I agree with you, my JK can also go everywhere an "overland rig" can go. All mystics aside though, does it really matter how people look at off roading? What I mean is, Rock-Crawlers, Overlanders, Mud-Boggers or Dune Buggies we all have our "vision" of what off roading is and it's that vision that binds us all together. I can sum up it up in one phrase and Eddie can flame for for stealing it but, "It's a way of life"...Period!! I don't think it can be said any better. ;)

You guys are awesome :thumb:

Indefatigable
03-24-2012, 01:42 PM
As someone from a much more wild and less developed nation than America.... America is just a bit too much developed with infastructure to partake in the more idea of overland or as we are more akin to call it, expedition.

You guys have done a great job creating recreational infastructure throughout your nation such that its not such a monumental undertaking for many and alot of experiences are achieveable for a huge proportion of your population. You have no idea how great your maps are!

Some of the major build differences we see between an expedition vehicle and rock crawler....

Gearing is more stock.
No armour
Usually runs a smaller tire.
Usually not a Jeep. More likely a LC, p/u or roomier vehicle. Though this is changing a bit with the JKU.
Our significantly less disposable income and higher cost of living probably is part of the slow accepance of the $$$$ JK compared to the more acceptably priced used trucks for these purposes.

An expedition type trip a few of us have been talking about is "The Canol Trail" . Starts at the Yukon border and heads NE. I think maybe 50% is driveable. The trail actually ends on the wrong side of the MacKenzie River at Norman Wells.

YMMV

wayoflife
03-24-2012, 04:30 PM
Built for overland = install an AEV lift?

:cheesy:

:cheesy: no kidding. more times than not, that's what it seems like :crazyeyes:


I'm not sure what "overland" is supposed to mean either. Particularly here in the states, I think the more appropriate term would be a "wilderness" Jeep. To me, travel in the wilderness requires many things the most important of which are (1) the ability to self-rescue because of the inability to obtain assistance or reach civilization in less than one day's hike and (2) self-sustenance without the need for re-ration or support (food, water, equipment, etc.) from civilization for the period of time traveled.

Depending on your mode of travel, and the topography of what is to be traveled, the gear you bring to satisfy (1) and (2) above will obviously change. I fail to see how having a flip-top tent on the roof of a Jeep makes it more wilderness capable than another Jeep that has a 4-season tent or bivy sack stored in a bag in the back. Actually, I can think of many reasons why the latter would be a MUCH better way to go than the former. (If your Jeep becomes inoperable in the wilderness, it's pretty hard to carry your flip top tent on your back to use as shelter on your multi-day hike out...oh, and there is that whole weight savings thing.) I also fail to see how a Jeep with 35's and a standard lift is somehow more wilderness capable than a Jeep turning 40's with coilovers. The only argument I could see is if the distance traveled is so great that the relative difference in gas mileage becomes an issue which cannot be planned for through preparation (i.e. bringing extra gas). Here in the states though (particularly the lower 48), that problem seems unlikely.

I guess my point is that "overland" has become more of a cliche for a type of look and less of a definition of capabilities. If your Jeep is built to cover the terrain you plan to cover, and you have the ability to fix it and perform self-rescue, then the rest really comes down to what else you throw in the back and what you have between your ears, not how the Jeep was built. Just my .02.

Wow, that was well said and, I'd have to agree with you 100%. I've never given it much thought until recently but, I really am starting to see the term "overland" as a cliche for a type of look and less of a definintion of capabilities. At least, I have yet to see or hear how people here in America who profess to have an "overland built" have a Jeep that is anymore capable than mine or most anyone elses built up Jeep. :idontknow:

wayoflife
03-24-2012, 04:46 PM
I always thought overland was jeeps that took on open spaces, like the plains and meadows or like the outback in Australia that is what an overland jeep is to me. Just my :twocents:

granted, this is a shot of moby's clone and moochie's JK but, we do a lot of exploring in open spaces like plains and meadow too :yup:

http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=246341


I would be curious to know WOL, how this question came to be. I know you said the topic came up, but was there a valid argument on the topic or was is just, "Hey I heard this somewhere..." kind of thing?

actually, the question has been coming up more and more recently and mostly with guys running kits like what AEV makes. their argument is that there's actually some kind of difference between an "overland" lift kit and what i have and that not everyone needs or wants a "rock crawler". of course, if you've ever riden in a JK with both setups, i think you would agree that my so called "rock crawler" not only far exceeds the performance of other short arm kits or ones that use relocation brackets off road but, it also far exceeds the performance in terms of ride and handly on pavement too. but hey, that's just me.


I can't speak for WOL, but I can say I've read numerous comments where people discount advice about lifts on the basis that "they are building an overland Jeep, not a rock crawler" without ever taking the time to explain what they view as a legitimate distinction between the two. If they were talking about purpose built buggies then I might understand the point, but a JKU on coilovers seems every bit as capable to me as an "overlander", if not more so, than any other JKU build.

exactly. if there really is a difference in how you build an "overland" jeep, i'd like to know what it is and why it's so much better than a jeep like mine.


Just thinking now the overland vehicles started in places like Africa or Australia to keep safe from dangerous animals like lions. The tent on top is to stay safe from snakes, lions and other dangers that can get to them if they were on the ground. The snorkel to cross rivers or creeks without killing the engine. Its really to stay safe from what is surrounding them and get out of crap to get home nothing else.

yeah, if i needed to ford really really deep water, a snorkel would be a must but, i can tell you from seeing it first hand, if you did ford water that deep in a JK, you would seriously screw up things like your seatbelts. once wet, they won't work anymore. also, compared to most overland jeeps i've seen, our moby sits SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER than them and because of it, never dunk down deep enough to need one. as far as sitting up high or carrying more supplies, i might prefer a trailer over a roof rack. we've done the roof rack thing on our old TJ as it really was the only way to haul in enough gear for 3 people and a dog but, i really really hated wheeling with it as it totally screws up your center of gravity and gets hung up in trees.


WOW! What a topic. I think it just comes down to what you want to do. I have an RV to trailer my jeep to far away trips. I camp in a campground and wheel the area for 2-3 days. I sleep in my bed,have a shower and a good meal and my own restroom, I am out to enjoy myself and have a good time.Now that being said, I also have a roof rack to pack all the necessary supplies to go on a trip such as the Rubicon Trail. I don't want to be restricted to a certain type of trail.I want my jeep to be flexable. I realy like Rack Crawlin, but also "so called" expidition trails to sight see,explore and just have fun.So it just comes down to your own interpretation. If I want to do it! I want my jeep to take me there! Thats just my thoughts!:idontknow:

well, exploring is our true love and what ultimately got us into wheeling in the first place. we've only built up our rigs to help ensure we can get to our planned destination. :yup:

wayoflife
03-24-2012, 05:06 PM
From this definition alone, I can use a compact rental car for overlanding. I have gotten the feeling from guys who build "overland" specific rigs :thinking: that there is some mystical thing that separates their "overland rig" from my build, which they consider to be a rock crawler.

This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go. I'll go with my build. And one last thing, we use to call it camping. Thanks for your time.

:clap2: wow, that was perfect and, i couldn't have said it better if i tried. :thumb:


I agree with you, my JK can also go everywhere an "overland rig" can go. All mystics aside though, does it really matter how people look at off roading? What I mean is, Rock-Crawlers, Overlanders, Mud-Boggers or Dune Buggies we all have our "vision" of what off roading is and it's that vision that binds us all together. I can sum up it up in one phrase and Eddie can flame for for stealing it but, "It's a way of life"...Period!! I don't think it can be said any better. ;)

that's the way i've always seen it and when i started to hear this rhetoric about "overland built" jeeps, i just had to stop and ask, what is the difference? to me, a well built jeep is a well built jeep and i unless i'm wrong, i thought that's what we all wanted. :crazyeyes:


As someone from a much more wild and less developed nation than America.... America is just a bit too much developed with infastructure to partake in the more idea of overland or as we are more akin to call it, expedition.

You guys have done a great job creating recreational infastructure throughout your nation such that its not such a monumental undertaking for many and alot of experiences are achieveable for a huge proportion of your population. You have no idea how great your maps are!

Some of the major build differences we see between an expedition vehicle and rock crawler....

Gearing is more stock.
No armour
Usually runs a smaller tire.
Usually not a Jeep. More likely a LC, p/u or roomier vehicle. Though this is changing a bit with the JKU.
Our significantly less disposable income and higher cost of living probably is part of the slow accepance of the $$$$ JK compared to the more acceptably priced used trucks for these purposes.

An expedition type trip a few of us have been talking about is "The Canol Trail" . Starts at the Yukon border and heads NE. I think maybe 50% is driveable. The trail actually ends on the wrong side of the MacKenzie River at Norman Wells.

YMMV

and, that is why i specifically asked the question in the way that i did - "in america". maybe if we were up in the yukon, africa, south america or the gobi desert, i might see where building a rig with specilized parts would be a disadvantage as things replacement parts would be hard, if not impossible to come by but, here in america, i kind of find the idea of purposefully building a so called "overland" jeep to not make a whole lot of sense. more times than not, the only real difference i see is that they have a jeep with a sub-standard suspension system, a roof rack and snorkel.

GCM 2
03-25-2012, 03:50 AM
to me, a well built jeep is a well built jeep and i unless i'm wrong, i thought that's what we all wanted. :crazyeyes:

The photos attached are of my short lived foray with a Land Rover. It had a roof rack and snorkel, it was comfortable, quiet, had a great all aluminum V8, had a metric shit ton of room for gear, and had "some" capability. Emphasis on "some" capability. Bottom line, I got tired of watching jeeps going places, using only 50% of their capability while I was at 90% of my LR3's capability. My snorkel and roof rack were of no benefit when what I truly needed was larger tires than 285/12.5/18's, more suspension lift, and solid axles. I went back to a jeep, my 5th one. As you stated Eddie, a well built jeep is just that, a well built jeep.

wayoflife
03-25-2012, 06:29 AM
wow, that was a clean looking lr3. but, knowing you in person, i think it's pretty clear that a jeep is a better fit for who you are. :cool:

StrizzyChris
04-12-2012, 05:33 PM
I really am starting to see the term "overland" as a cliche for a type of look and less of a definintion of capabilities. At least, I have yet to see or hear how people here in America who profess to have an "overland built" have a Jeep that is anymore capable than mine or most anyone elses built up Jeep. :idontknow:

I think a few people hit the nail on the head. I have read in a few overland sites that the true meaning of overland is a somewhat uncharted and unplanned adventure where maps are not always availible to guide you. Also that an "overland" vehicle should not have superchargers, complex performance parts that are "less durable" than the stock parts that were optimized in the design of the vehicle. also to cut back on weight of the overall design to reduce wear and tear on the key components, as you will not be serviceable in your far out desination. If those aftermarket parts are just as, or more, reliable as stock while not placing to much wear on the vehicle, then I dont see how it too can not be considered as "overland"?

I also think your right eddie, that its a cliche or nitch group to be affiliated with so you can wear birkenstocks and a fedora while smoking a clove cigarette and thumbing their nose at a trend of BA vehicles!

HighTrail
04-13-2012, 01:33 AM
With the introduction of JKU's, the line between "overlander" and rockcrawler" builds is definitely more blurry.

The TJ platform performed well at any off-road terrain (terrain depends on modifications). We all know it's biggest down fall was it's size; small, light payload, again small. When all you plan to do are day trips, these are non-issues. When you want to get out of cellphone service for a week plus (The Maze for example) these are issues. Before the introduction of the JKU platform, Tacomas, Land Cruisers, Troopies, Defender 90's, etc... were vehicles more suitable to long expeditions where resupplies are far in between. Here comes the JKU: bigger, more payload, more options. They can be built to outperform just about any other vehicle in the US when it comes to off-roading. This platform has the ability to be a daily driver/rockcrawler/overlander; unlike earlier generations.

There definitely is an "image" to an overland built vehicle. Less radical in some cases, roof top tents and snorkels* in other cases. Because this category is so undefined a stock JKU, LR4, Liberty, Tacoma, 4Runner, etc would fit in right with a JKU on 40" tires with the build choice representing it's owner.

That being said, I'm a Land Rover and Jeep owner. Is my D90 an overland or rockcrawl build with it's snorkel, limb risers, small roof rack, skid plates, ARB lockers, winch, hi-lift, and 33" tires? It goes from the best trails of Moab to the backcountry of the Southwest; day trips to week + expeditions. The truck is a representation what I love about off-roading: the wonderlust of venturing on a dusty backroad or feeling the truck walk over technical terrain (like that on Cliffhanger or Steelbender). With a stock 2012 JKUR in the works now, I have a clean slate. Will it rockcrawl or overland? Not sure, but it will be a well built Jeep.

Everyone has their voice on this rockcrawl, overland build thing. The improvements in technology has increased the quality of components available to us. The serviceability of parts in the field less of an issue (coilovers and air bags are more reliable than 5-10 years ago). Your build is your build. Just build it well and know your reasons. See you on the trail.

*An often overlooked benefit to a snorkel is the reduction in dust intake.

NAUJK
04-13-2012, 08:22 PM
I have had this question as well...
When I think of an "overland" built rig all I can think about is Australia, going through the Outback and needing to be able to sustain yourself for a LONG time, more so than just doing the Rubicon in 3 days. I don't know what makes it what more capable to be considered on or the other. I do know that most Outback going rigs carry more than 1 spare tire because the heat can just trash the crap out of the rubber, just softens it up. I feel that overland vehicles are built for sustainability rather than being built for going over every and anything, or flex over a mountain. But I also don't feel that Moby for example is a "Rock Crawler" either...When I think of a Crawler I think of some "crappy" old rig that has nothing of what it used to be and looks more like a buggy than a Jeep, and no one cares if it rolls or gets dented and doesn't really have a sustainable set of gear with it.

I feel what we see ourselves as, with Moby and our own rigs are a hybrid of the 2, they can sustain themselves and flex over basically anything, and do great on the road as well. This is a great question to ponder... cus I myself don't see how one would figure it out...

mmccurdy
04-14-2012, 05:56 AM
I think historically "overland" wheeling was more about longer durations and exploring remote locations than crawling or dealing with technical obstacles. However, with modern vehicle platforms and equipment, I think it's less and less the case that we really need to choose one or the other. IMO the snorkel and rack aesthetic is mostly a remnant from the days when choosing a coil sprung, long wheelbase Land Rover was a real tradeoff vs. a leaf sprung CJ jacked sky high to clear big enough tires for crawling the Rubicon. That's not to say I don't like the snorkel-and-rack aesthetic -- I'm one of the biggest offenders -- I'm saying that it's mostly just that: an aesthetic choice.

I think there are still differences in prepping for one style of trip vs. the other, obviously. Case in point, I left my rack and roof top tent at home when I was packing for Moab this year, and if I were going camping for two weeks in remote locations I'd throw them back on.

The one aspect of "overland" build philosophy that I think all styles of wheelers could probably benefit from is the conscious tradeoff between upgraded or modified components and simplicity and reliability. This is a big consideration for true overland vehicles because you didn't want to have to replace some non-standard part in the middle of the Gobi desert, but although the implications may be less severe, you also don't want to be stuck in the middle of the Rubicon or on the side of the freeway trying to get to the trail.

Basically, the farther you deviate from extremely well-tested and engineered OEM components, the more you open yourself up to potential failure. There are very few aftermarket component manufacturers that really approach OEM engineering quality levels. Throw in combinations of components that have not been rigorously tested together, and it becomes even more of an issue. I've seen tons of cases where aftermarket component X is rubbing, binding, breaking component Y from another manufacturer, or where "performance" mods (hemis, superchargers, headers, etc.) basically amount to one headache after another. Obviously there are a lot of cases where upgrades are worth the added risk and complexity, but I think a lot of times people don't really see it as a tradeoff in the same way traditional "overland" builders might.

My two cents. Besides, how can you not think this looks at least a little cool?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7110/7075714453_3a0e3b5276_b.jpg

wayoflife
04-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Awesome, I think some very interesting points have been brought up. But now, here's something that I'd like to add - most of the trail breaks I've seen have come from guys running under-built rigs that are overly weighed down and because of it, forced to push their vehicle harder than would be needed if it were built up with better components. In fact, most of the breaks I've seen have been drive train related (on my rig too) such as broken axle shafts, broken drive shafts, blown out ring and pinions and NOT, suspension related components. I should also add that by keeping all four on the floor through better articulation, you will have better traction and stability and thus require less skinny pedal to get you up and over obstacles. And, if you're really planning to carry that much weight, I would think it'd be wiser to beef up components that will actually feel the burden of it rather than focus on how to fix it when it breaks. While OEM components may be well engineered and well tested, I believe they are engineered and tested for the vehicle as is and NOT weighed down with an additional 2,000 lbs. of bumpers, armor and gear. For things like axle housings, axle shafts and drive shafts, it is my opinion that aftermarket components are not only far superior, they are also easier to repair should they break. Certainly, things like a standard 1310 u-joint is a lot easier to come by than an proprietary Rzeppa joint.

So that it's clear, I have nothing against roof racks or snorkels, I was just trying to get my head around what exactly constitutes an "overland" build especially here in America.

BTW, that is a badass pic Mike - I so want to do a trip like that :)

mmccurdy
04-14-2012, 05:36 PM
But now, here's something that I'd like to add - most of the trail breaks I've seen have come from guys running under-built rigs that are overly weighed down and because of it, forced to push their vehicle harder than would be needed if it were built up with better components. In fact, most of the breaks I've seen have been drive train related such as broken axle shafts, broken drive shafts, blown out ring and pinions and NOT, suspension related components.

Sure, but most of the wheeling you guys do is NOT what would traditionally be called "overland" wheeling. Weighing a rig down with 2k lbs of bumpers and then taking it crawling over hardcore obstacles, and yeah you're going to break stuff. A stock Rubicon or very modestly built JK wouldn't even flinch at the type of terrain even most hardcore international expedition guys have to deal with on a routine basis let alone what we have here in the states. Stick a winch on a Rubicon off the showroom floor and you've got a rig that's way more capable and reliable than 90% of the classic "rack and snorkel" overland rigs out there.

My point here is that if only intend to use your rig for "overland" style travel, you're not likely to need the added capability of many aftermarket components, and hence you're probably better off keeping your build super simple and closer to stock to avoid the risks that come with upgrading. Compatibility, reliability, suspension geometry changes, parts replacement in the field, etc. are all maybe minor risks, but they're greater than zero.

The great thing about the JK platform and the current state of aftermarket components is that we can have our cake and eat it too. Throwing a pair of beefed up axles and well-engineered coilovers under a long wheelbase JK will likely only improve your comfort and carrying capacity for longer more remote trips, and also ensure that you don't break an axle if you do want to hit more challenging stuff.


For things like axle housings, axle shafts and drive shafts, it is my opinion that aftermarket components are not only far superior, they are also easier to repair should they break. Certainly, things like a standard 1310 u-joint is a lot easier to come by than an proprietary Rzeppa joint.

I think this depends a lot on the part in question, and it cuts both ways. Yes, a standard u-joint will be easier to come by, though stock JK driveshafts are also quite plentiful in my experience. Can you walk into any old Kragen and pick up a replacement 14" coilover? (I actually don't know, I've never tried.) How likely is it that you'll be able to find a direct replacement for your rear passenger D60 Dynatrac axle shaft, should it break 10 miles in on the trail? You know, hypothetically speaking... ;)

In all seriousness, I think ease-of-replacement is pretty much a non-issue here in the states, where we can typically just make a cell phone call and have pretty much any part imaginable flown in overnight.

wayoflife
04-14-2012, 05:52 PM
My point here is that if only intend to use your rig for "overland" style travel, you're not likely to need the added capability of many aftermarket components, and hence you're probably better off keeping your build super simple and closer to stock to avoid the risks that come with upgrading. Compatibility, reliability, suspension geometry changes, parts replacement in the field, etc. are all maybe minor risks, but they're greater than zero.

I guess that's where I get confused. Again, here in America, what exactly constitutes "overland" style travel?


I think this depends a lot on the part in question, and it cuts both ways. Yes, a standard u-joint will be easier to come by, though stock JK driveshafts are also quite plentiful in my experience. Can you walk into any old Kragen and pick up a replacement 14" coilover? (I actually don't know, I've never tried.) How likely is it that you'll be able to find a direct replacement for your rear passenger D60 Dynatrac axle shaft, should it break 10 miles in on the trail? You know, hypothetically speaking... ;)

:cheesy: Touché. My reasons for pointing out drive train breaks is because of what I've seen happen on my own personal rig and, my answer to that is to build it bigger and strong. Needless to say, that's why I now run a full float Dynatrac Pro Rock 60. Really, it's what I would have wanted to run from the get go but, it wasn't available at the time. With a full-float setup, you wouldn't need to find a replacement shaft, just pull what's broken and keep going.


In all seriousness, I think ease-of-replacement is pretty much a non-issue here in the states, where we can typically just make a cell phone call and have pretty much any part imaginable flown in overnight.

And, that's why I specifically said, "here in America". While I may not be able to get a replacement coil over at a local Kragen, I know that I can have one FedEx'd to whatever town I happen to be stranded in. For me, I always try to carry enough resources to at least get me off the trail and from there, a simple call can take care of the rest.

GCM 2
04-14-2012, 07:11 PM
....... This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but an "overland rig" cannot go everywhere my rig can go. I'll go with my build. And one last thing, we use to call it camping. Thanks for your time.

I stand by the above. I have almost two decades of time driving the traditional overlanding/camel trophy build Land Rovers (overseas: 90, 100, 110 series, stateside: Discovery I and II, LR3), I like Land Rovers, they have a very cult like dedicated following, just like jeeps. The main reason we got stuck and/or broke parts; gross vehicle weight, just like on a JK. Although being stuck was usually due to weight AND the ridiculously small tires with tiny footprints. Now for the roof top tents, everyone loves the ease of use and safety from natures ground threats, however the well kept secrets among overlanders is the roof top tent drawbacks. I have yet to meet one individual that loves the noise, the weight 120-200lbs (just the tent and not including the rack weight), the HUGE loss of gas mileage and the high load carry (high center of gravity= instability and rollover potential).

For me the traditional overland build always limited where my team could travel and therefore made route choices more limited, equating to needing more bypasses, meaning longer routes, which also means needing to carry more fuel.

My current build is reliable, rides great, and has go anywhere ability. I think like most sports/hobbies/lifestyles, the increase and advent of new technology and the bleed over of the technology between sports is awesome and it's the way we progress and learn!

wayoflife
04-14-2012, 07:23 PM
I stand by the above.

:cheesy: It's just cracks me up everytime I read your "And one last thing, we use to call it camping" comment. The tall and short of it is, your JK CAN go everywhere an "overland rig" can go but, an "overland rig" CANNOT go everywhere it can go.

Speaking of roof top tents, ARB had made the following post over on their Facebook page last week and I couldn't help but to think that maybe, just maybe, the rig in question wouldn't have rolled over in the first place IF it didn't have a huge, heavy rooftop tent throwing off its center of gravity. But hey, what do I know :idontknow:


How strong is your rooftop tent? This ARB tent and ARB roof rack survived rolling over several times!

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536750_10150727222924571_152967154570_9211076_1019 987925_n.jpg

GCM 2
04-14-2012, 08:19 PM
:cheesy: It's just cracks me up everytime I read your "And one last thing, we use to call it camping" comment.
It just bothers me when we feel the need to "church up" perfectly suitable definitions of time honored activities. Not a fan of re-branding or re-purposing.



Speaking of roof top tents, ARB had made the following post over on their Facebook page last week and I couldn't help but to think that maybe, just maybe, the rig in question wouldn't have rolled over in the first place IF it didn't have a huge, heavy rooftop tent throwing off its center of gravity. But hey, what do I know :idontknow:
Without knowing the full story or seeing the event take place, can't really say. However, they do change the center of gravity exponentially. Quite a conundrum, roof load possibly cause for rollover, roof load possibly reason life was spared........deep, very deep:idontknow:

Serg5000
04-14-2012, 08:38 PM
This thread really hits home for a lot of us. When I first got my Jeep I had no idea of what it's capabilities were. All I thought was I need a lift and tires and a winch. And that's just to make it look good. Now after two years of using our Jeep to explore and seek new adventures, I'm having to re-think the entire thing. Like it was said here. We pack the crap out of our Jeep and drive hundreds of miles up into the wilderness in search of a great spot to camp and spend days with loved ones. If thats an overland, then that's what I have. On other occasion we pack very light and head to the desert where we find ourself crawling over rocks and obstacles just to say we had a good time trying not to break something. If that's a crawler, then I have that also.
Looks like unknowing we have the best of both worlds.

Now that I know what I do. I'm just trying to replace all the low budget mods for more quality stuff so I can enjoy the best of both worlds.

So in the end we built a Overcrawland. ?

StrizzyChris
04-20-2012, 05:20 PM
"Overlanding is about exploration, rather than conquering obstacles. While the roads and trails we travel might be rough or technically challenging, they are the means to an end, not the goal itself. The goal is to see and learn about our world, whether on a weekend trip 100 miles from home or a 10,000-mile expedition across another continent. The vehicle and equipment can be simple or extravagant - they, too, are simply means to an end. History, wildlife, culture, scenery, self-sufficiency - these are the rewards of overlanding." <---Quoted from overland journal @ http://www.overlandjournal.com/overlanding/

So according to this, there is no definition to what a vehicle should or should not be equiped with to be defined overland. I think it, like in many other sub-groups, is an overused term for a small group of people or venders to make their style of equipment trendy in a very diverse market.

mmccurdy
04-20-2012, 05:38 PM
"Overlanding is about exploration, rather than conquering obstacles. While the roads and trails we travel might be rough or technically challenging, they are the means to an end, not the goal itself.

I actually really like that definition. I had forgotten about their writeup. This thread started out asking what makes an overland rig, but to respond quickly to those who are confused about overlanding vs. camping, I would submit that they're not equivalent. Think of "overlanding" as a means of travel -- like hiking, backpacking, dogsledding, whatever -- and camping as the thing you do when you get there.

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 05:53 PM
Overlanding is about exploration, rather than conquering obstacles. While the roads and trails we travel might be rough or technically challenging, they are the means to an end, not the goal itself. The goal is to see and learn about our world, whether on a weekend trip 100 miles from home or a 10,000-mile expedition across another continent.

funny, I've always just called it "wheeling" as in, "let's go wheeling this weekend" :idontknow:
I can't speak for anyone else but, this is the only reason why I got into Jeeps in the first place and why I've built mine up the way it is.


The vehicle and equipment can be simple or extravagant - they, too, are simply means to an end. History, wildlife, culture, scenery, self-sufficiency - these are the rewards of overlanding.

Well, I guess that's where I differ from "overlanding". In addition to all that, the Jeep way of life always includes spending time with good friends. :yup:

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 06:07 PM
BTW - I would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that we've seen more history, wildlife, culture and scenery in our extravagantly built Moby Dick than most self-professed overland types could ever hope to in their idea of a purpose built overland Jeeps. As far as self-sufficiency goes, well, I'd be willing to be that I'm still more prepared and self-sufficent for not only my needs but, for theirs as well :yup:

http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=204906

JKRay
04-20-2012, 06:24 PM
BTW - I would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that we've seen more history, wildlife, culture and scenery in our extravagantly built Moby Dick than most self-professed overland types could ever hope to in their idea of a purpose built overland Jeeps. As far as self-sufficiency goes, well, I'd be willing to be that I'm still more prepared and self-sufficent for not only my needs but, for theirs as well :yup:


haha I would have to agree! Im sure you have everything you need for the oh Sh*t moments. :thumb:

I am still stuck on the overland vehicle as more of a "look" than anything, I guess as long as your out and having fun thats all that matters. :drinks:

mmccurdy
04-20-2012, 06:34 PM
BTW - I would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that we've seen more history, wildlife, culture and scenery in our extravagantly built Moby Dick than most self-professed overland types could ever hope to in their idea of a purpose built overland Jeeps. As far as self-sufficiency goes, well, I'd be willing to be that I'm still more prepared and self-sufficent for not only my needs but, for theirs as well :yup:

I don't think many people would argue with that. Congrats on building a great "overland" rig without even knowing it! ;)

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 06:44 PM
I guess as long as your out and having fun thats all that matters. :drinks:

amen to that :beer:


I don't think many people would argue with that. Congrats on building a great "overland" rig without even knowing it! ;)

:cheesy: maybe so.

when this whole discussion first started for me, it was because there were people out there who were playing down what i have as being some kind of useless "rock crawler" and not as functional as what they had - an "overland" built rig. aside from a snorkel and roof rack, i guess i just wanted to know what the real difference was between an overland rig and a just well built rig. the more i think about it, the more i think they really are the same thing or, at least should be :cool:

3RD KNUT
04-20-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm not sure what "overland" is supposed to mean either. Particularly here in the states, I think the more appropriate term would be a "wilderness" Jeep. To me, travel in the wilderness requires many things the most important of which are (1) the ability to self-rescue because of the inability to obtain assistance or reach civilization in less than one day's hike and (2) self-sustenance without the need for re-ration or support (food, water, equipment, etc.) from civilization for the period of time traveled.

Depending on your mode of travel, and the topography of what is to be traveled, the gear you bring to satisfy (1) and (2) above will obviously change. I fail to see how having a flip-top tent on the roof of a Jeep makes it more wilderness capable than another Jeep that has a 4-season tent or bivy sack stored in a bag in the back. Actually, I can think of many reasons why the latter would be a MUCH better way to go than the former. (If your Jeep becomes inoperable in the wilderness, it's pretty hard to carry your flip top tent on your back to use as shelter on your multi-day hike out...oh, and there is that whole weight savings thing.) I also fail to see how a Jeep with 35's and a standard lift is somehow more wilderness capable than a Jeep turning 40's with coilovers. The only argument I could see is if the distance traveled is so great that the relative difference in gas mileage becomes an issue which cannot be planned for through preparation (i.e. bringing extra gas). Here in the states though (particularly the lower 48), that problem seems unlikely.

I guess my point is that "overland" has become more of a cliche for a type of look and less of a definition of capabilities. If your Jeep is built to cover the terrain you plan to cover, and you have the ability to fix it and perform self-rescue, then the rest really comes down to what else you throw in the back and what you have between your ears, not how the Jeep was built. Just my .02.

+1 for Sharkey. I think he nailed it.

taher2.1
04-20-2012, 07:48 PM
Ok, this is much better...

I had to upgrade the steering system but for someone like me, I rather spend money on better camping gears than heavily modifying JK.
I prefer long trip so saving on gas and having everything I need inside the JK would be nice...
Alaska trip still in planning :D

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Ok, this is much better...

I had to upgrade the steering system but for someone like me, I rather spend money on better camping gears than heavily modifying JK.
I prefer long trip so saving on gas and having everything I need inside the JK would be nice...
Alaska trip still in planning :D

But, I already have better camping gear and much better tools, recover equipment and know how to use them than most people who wear the title of "overland" on their shirt sleeves. Unless you're satisfied with what you have, time will affording you more opportunities to get more stuff. Time can also teach you more things about your Jeep like how NOT to break it in the first place and how to help fix other peoples less capable rigs when they do.

I too prefer long trips and having everything I need inside my JK and even things that other people might need as well. I would be the first to admit that gas is an issue but, at least here in America, it's nothing a little planning can't help you deal with.

taher2.1
04-20-2012, 08:11 PM
But, I already have better camping gear and much better tools, recover equipment and know how to use them than most people who wear the title of "overland" on their shirt sleeves. Unless you're satisfied with what you have, time will affording you more opportunities to get more stuff. Time can also teach you more things about your Jeep like how NOT to break it in the first place and how to help fix other peoples less capable rigs when they do.

I too prefer long trips and having everything I need inside my JK and even things that other people might need as well. I would be the first to admit that gas is an issue but, at least here in America, it's nothing a little planning can't help you deal with.

If we are are talking about in USA only than anything can be done with planning and you are right there is no difference than fuel economy only
Take the trip Don is planning for August. The fuel cost total will be around $24000. That is a lot so JK will smaller tires and mods will do better

I am going to overland Expo in May so maybe I will find a better answer for you or I will raise the same questions over there and see what they have to say

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 08:18 PM
If we are are talking about in USA only than anything can be done with planning and you are right there is no difference than fuel economy only
Take the trip Don is planning for August. The fuel cost total will be around $24000. That is a lot so JK will smaller tires and mods will do better

I am going to overland Expo in May so maybe I will find a better answer for you or I will raise the same questions over there and see what they have to say

yeah, i am speaking of here in america only. overseas in a place like australia or africa, you can't even build up a vehicle like a jeep and have it be legal. there, they don't prefer to build "overland" vehicles, they have to.

mmccurdy
04-20-2012, 08:21 PM
Take the trip Don is planning for August. The fuel cost total will be around $24000. That is a lot so JK will smaller tires and mods will do better

I am going to overland Expo in May so maybe I will find a better answer for you or I will raise the same questions over there and see what they have to say

Holy crap -- where the hell is Don going in August? $24K is a lot of fuel even @ $5/gal!

Indefatigable
04-20-2012, 08:26 PM
Holy crap -- where the hell is Don going in August? $24K is a lot of fuel even @ $5/gal!

Go north of the 49th and gas starts at $5.40/ US gal. Remote areas expect upwards of 25% or more premium on that price.

Makes my Rubicon trip in July seem like a gas price holiday!

taher2.1
04-20-2012, 08:29 PM
Holy crap -- where the hell is Don going in August? $24K is a lot of fuel even @ $5/gal!

I am actually talking about total combined gas money for the trip to east coast not Don only...:D

mmccurdy
04-20-2012, 08:34 PM
Go north of the 49th and gas starts at $5.40/ US gal. Remote areas expect upwards of 25% or more premium on that price.

Makes my Rubicon trip in July seem like a gas price holiday!

Sure, but for $24K you can drive from NY to LA ten times even using very conservative numbers... either Don has something pretty incredible up his sleeve (in which case I want in :thumb:) or there's an extra zero somewhere in there...

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 08:38 PM
Sure, but for $24K you can drive from NY to LA ten times even using very conservative numbers... either Don has something pretty incredible up his sleeve (in which case I want in :thumb:) or there's an extra zero somewhere in there...

i think he's calculating all the jeeps that would be going and their total consumption there and back.

taher2.1
04-20-2012, 09:00 PM
i think he's calculating all the jeeps that would be going and their total consumption there and back.

Yes :thumb:

mmccurdy
04-20-2012, 09:03 PM
Yes :thumb:

Makes sense, sorry for the hijack. Back to your regularly-scheduled spirited debate! :beer:

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 09:21 PM
okay, here's another one to throw out there - if MPG is really a concern when it comes to "overland", how much mpg is lost through resistance and drag caused by a bulky roof rack or light bar? also, while big tires may reduce your mpg, wouldn't hauling a ton of gear do that too? last but not least, why not run a more street tread looking tire like falken's? with less rolling resistance, they WILL give you more mpg - trust me, i have tested them out and they really do give you on average about 4 mpg extra.

Indefatigable
04-20-2012, 09:45 PM
All things being equal, the only thing I have found to hurt my mileage (aside from driving style) is tire tread and transmission.

My club has a fair number of LJs in various sizes, so we compare mileage on long trips.

Most of our driving is in mountain conditions.

37" Trxus tires on a LJ 6SPD gets the same mileage as a 33" BFG MT tire LJ weighing easily 500lbs less.
I swap to Pit Bull Rockers and I lose 3MPG.
Almost exact same set up LJ as me but with Auto trans. gets about 3MPG worse than me. 37" GY MTR on it VS my 37" Trxus

Rooftop accessories do hurt mileage, but its quite minimal at lower speeds. Noticeable at freeway speeds.

Again, these vehicles have very bad air dynamics to start with anyways, so more drag is not going to change much. Where as the frictional area on the tires can have a more pronounced effect.

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 10:07 PM
All things being equal, the only thing I have found to hurt my mileage (aside from driving style) is tire tread and transmission.

My club has a fair number of LJs in various sizes, so we compare mileage on long trips.

Most of our driving is in mountain conditions.

37" Trxus tires on a LJ 6SPD gets the same mileage as a 33" BFG MT tire LJ weighing easily 500lbs less.
I swap to Pit Bull Rockers and I lose 3MPG.
Almost exact same set up LJ as me but with Auto trans. gets about 3MPG worse than me. 37" GY MTR on it VS my 37" Trxus

Rooftop accessories do hurt mileage, but its quite minimal at lower speeds. Noticeable at freeway speeds.

Again, these vehicles have very bad air dynamics to start with anyways, so more drag is not going to change much. Where as the frictional area on the tires can have a more pronounced effect.

yeah, i was referring to roof racks at highway speeds. sure, jeeps are bricks in the wind anyway but, adding a brillo pad on top certainly doesn't help anything. i used to have one on our old TJ and even without a load up top, i could just feel it robbing me of any forward motion i had on the freeway - of course, on top of being loud as hell.

Wowos
04-20-2012, 10:16 PM
yeah, i am speaking of here in america only. overseas in a place like australia or africa, you can't even build up a vehicle like a jeep and have it be legal. there, they don't prefer to build "overland" vehicles, they have to.
I can tell you guys something about how it is here in Poland if you want to ;)

I'll start with the fact, that probably most of your jeeps wouldn't be legal to drive on public streets. For example the whole tire must be covered by fender.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7909/img0121gsn.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/img0121gsn.jpg/)
(on the picture my truck - as you can see I used additional rubber fender flares to cover the tire)

Both front and rear fog lamps are obligatory, same refers to licence plates. Also amount of additional front lights is limited to 4 (as I remember).
You can't use aftermarket hydraulic steering components (so no more PCS or similar).
I need to ask my police friends to confirm that, but I'm quite sure that driving without doors is also prohibited.

Those are only a few of all regulations... :crazyeyes:

Tomorrow I'll write something about this "overland vs offroad" vehicles "competitions", because here we've got this "problem" ;)


Interesting detail - did you knew that one of main reasons which prompted BFGoodrich to came up with KM2s was fact, that European Union released new regulations about "noise emissions" ? Funny thing is that they only refers to cars or light trucks, when most of road noises are produced by heavy transporting trucks... :doh:

wayoflife
04-20-2012, 10:24 PM
I can tell you guys something about how it is here in Poland if you want to ;)

I'll start with the fact, that probably most of your jeeps wouldn't be legal to drive on public streets. For example the whole tire must be covered by fender.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7909/img0121gsn.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/img0121gsn.jpg/)
(on the picture my truck - as you can see I used additional rubber fender flares to cover the tire)

Both front and rear fog lamps are obligatory, same refers to licence plates. Also amount of additional front lights is limited to 4 (as I remember).
You can't use aftermarket hydraulic steering components (so no more PCS or similar).
I need to ask my police friends to confirm that, but I'm quite sure that driving without doors is also prohibited.

Those are only a few of all regulations... :crazyeyes:

Tomorrow I'll write something about this "overland vs offroad" vehicles "competitions", because here we've got this "problem" ;)


Interesting detail - did you knew that one of main reasons which prompted BFGoodrich to came up with KM2s was fact, that European Union released new regulations about "noise emissions" ? Funny thing is that they only refers to cars or light trucks, when most of road noises are produced by heavy transporting trucks... :doh:

oh, i'm sure in europe, it's got to be real tough for you to do anything. i'll be intersted to hear about the "problem" you have over there :)

taher2.1
04-20-2012, 10:37 PM
I will never get a roof rack or roof tent but I love how fast you can deploy those. :thumb:

I don't think the debate can end because there is no difference between Mobi or overland JK but end of the day...Do I really need 37 or 40 and the other mods that are required. I don't and my pocket wont allow me so I get a ARB fridge, Heater, water heater and make all of that run with dual battery and solar power...:D

I really want one of these but too Overland for me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFPibsBmHMc&feature=player_embedded

piginajeep
04-20-2012, 11:31 PM
to me being overland means being self sufficient. If it breaks, you need to have the tools, parts and knowledge to get off the trail or to safety.


its not being on a trail in the east coast where its a walk to the parking lot or a short hike to gain phone reception. Its being out in the desert or mountains with no phone reception for miles....



You need to build the vehicle for your trails and your knowledge on how to fix it. This is why I work on my own jeep and know every part that goes on it.

It does no good to have a built jeep on 40's if you dont know how to fix it. Same goes for a stock Jeep:twocents:

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 12:34 AM
so, having said all that, if money were no object, would you still purposfully build an "overland" jeep?

Indefatigable
04-21-2012, 12:50 AM
so, having said all that, if money were no object, would you still purposfully build an "overland" jeep?

Money no object means I can build a different machine for every different type of adventure I would go on. So yes :)

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 12:54 AM
Money no object means I can build a different machine for every different type of adventure I would go on. So yes :)

:cheesy: slippery one aren't you - how about if money were no object but, you could only build one rig. humor me.

GCM 2
04-21-2012, 01:05 AM
........how about if money were no object but, you could only build one rig.

.......and that vehicle had to be the swiss army knife of wheeling rigs? I would still take the path I have started down following the build example of EVO1/Moby.

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 01:08 AM
.......and that vehicle had to be the swiss army knife of wheeling rigs? I would still take the path I have started down following the build example of EVO1/Moby.

:cheesy: how'd i know you would answer like that :crazyeyes:

so, i was wondering. don't trailers count as "overland" too? i mean, if you really had to, could you take your swiss army knife of a rig and pull a small trailer loaded up with fuel, water an extra spare and parts? sure, it would mean more money but, wouldn't that still count? :idontknow:

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 01:08 AM
BTW, you might enjoy the read over on the Project-JK fan page:

http://www.facebook.com/projectjk#!/projectjk/posts/274101966014537

Even Mel couldn't resist getting in on the action :cheesy:

mmccurdy
04-21-2012, 01:09 AM
so, having said all that, if money were no object, would you still purposfully build an "overland" jeep?

Yup. But it would probably look a little more like Moby and a little less like a Camel Trophy Defender, based on my comments above that a modern JK built up with well-engineered aftermarket parts is probably the ideal "overland" rig from a functional standpoint.

If I really didn't care to hit the rocks with it ever (and if money were really no object, I'd have a dedicated buggy for that I suppose), I would be inclined to do stuff like an aux fuel tank that would extend the range and keep the weight down nice and low. Likewise for convenient higher capacity water storage. As you mention, access to fuel and water is not a huge issue most places here in the US, but it is a factor in route planning, and I do like having a little buffer when I'm rolling in to a super remote station that may or may not even have gas at the moment with my needle on E.

Other typical "overland" style systems like onboard hot water seem nice, but not strictly necessary, so even with cost removed from the equation, I'm not sure the convenience would outweigh the added weight and complexity of systems like that for me. I do like thinking about and designing and building them, but that's more about the hobby of building stuff than any real utility in the field. IMO the best and most functional approach to a lot of the creature comforts is to pick up nice, lightweight, compact regular-people-camping gear and go that route. One exception to that is the ARB fridge, which has to be one of the best upgrades I've ever made.

I personally run a snorkel because I had an unfortunate run-in with a river that cost me an engine, so for me it's just cheap insurance at this point.

Even though I own one, I can't defend a roof top tent from a functional or practical point of view. I just think it's cool to sleep in a treehouse on top of the Jeep. :bleh:

GCM 2
04-21-2012, 01:14 AM
:cheesy: how'd i know you would answer like that :crazyeyes:

so, i was wondering. don't trailers count as "overland" too? i mean, if you really had to, could you take your swiss army knife of a rig and pull a small trailer loaded up with fuel, water an extra spare and parts? sure, it would mean more money but, wouldn't that still count? :idontknow:

Well hell yes I could pull a trailer with a rig like ours! But I really hate pulling trailers offroad! I have done it many times in foreign lands during long range special reconnaissance missions for weeks on end, and it SUCKS! Driving two axles over, around or thru obstacles can be hard enough, why would I want to now maneuver three sets of axles if I can avoid it!

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 01:15 AM
Yup. But it would probably look a little more like Moby and a little less like a Camel Trophy Defender, based on my comments above that a modern JK built up with well-engineered aftermarket parts is probably the ideal "overland" rig from a functional standpoint.

a fair statement and i understand where you're coming from.


As you mention, access to fuel and water is not a huge issue most places here in the US, but it is a factor in route planning, and I do like having a little buffer when I'm rolling in to a super remote station that may or may not even have gas at the moment with my needle on E.

yeah, i've been there. hell, i've flat out run out of gas and it's no fun. rubicat has the means to carry more fuel and i'm gonna start looking for a better way to do the same on moby.


One exception to that is the ARB fridge, which has to be one of the best upgrades I've ever made.

oh man, i couldn't agree more. i honestly would get one even before a lift and tires. hell, i have 2 i love them so much. :yup:


I personally run a snorkel because I had an unfortunate run-in with a river that cost me an engine, so for me it's just cheap insurance at this point.

and truthfully, i have nothing against snorkels. i actually kinda like the one the rugged ridge has where it just comes up off the cowl like a hummer.


Even though I own one, I can't defend a roof top tent from a functional or practical point of view. I just think it's cool to sleep in a treehouse on top of the Jeep. :bleh:

yeah, they definitely have cool factor. i guess after having run a roof rack for years on our old TJ (because we had to), i just can't get myself to go down that path again.

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 01:18 AM
Well hell yes I could pull a trailer with a rig like ours! But I really hate pulling trailers offroad! I have done it many times in foreign lands during long range special reconnaissance missions for weeks on end, and it SUCKS! Driving two axles over, around or thru obstacles can be hard enough, why would I want to now maneuver three sets of axles if I can avoid it!

sound words from someone who would know.

funny thing is, with the advent of the 4-door JK, you really can carry a lot of gear and way more so than in an old TJ or even D90. and, if you're just one guy as many self-proclaimed overland types are, i would think you could carry all that you need and more in one. certainly, i think we do and up until recently, we had 2 adults, one teen and a dog :crazyeyes:

mmccurdy
04-21-2012, 01:19 AM
so, i was wondering. don't trailers count as "overland" too? i mean, if you really had to, could you take your swiss army knife of a rig and pull a small trailer loaded up with fuel, water an extra spare and parts? sure, it would mean more money but, wouldn't that still count? :idontknow:

Trailers are really appealing and I've definitely debated building one... to be honest money and time are probably the main reasons I haven't already... but I also know towing things on the road can be kind of stressful, so I'm not sure how I'd feel about pulling a 2000lb. trailer behind my rig on the trail.

mmccurdy
04-21-2012, 01:24 AM
and truthfully, i have nothing against snorkels. i actually kinda like the one the rugged ridge has where it just comes up off the cowl like a hummer.

I saw that for the first time in Moab. I like it a lot. More subtle than the giant thing that raises your intake to the roofline (and also has a tendency to catch on trees and low-hanging branches... ask me how I know...) If you're in water that deep you've got a lot bigger problems anyway. :naw:

GCM 2
04-21-2012, 01:26 AM
sound words from someone who would know.

funny thing is, with the advent of the 4-door JK, you really can carry a lot of gear and way more so than in an old TJ or even D90. and, if you're just one guy as many self-proclaimed overland types are, i would think you could carry all that you need and more in one. certainly, i think we do and up until recently, we had 2 adults, one teen and a dog :crazyeyes:


?.....but I also know towing things on the road can be kind of stressful, so I'm not sure how I'd feel about pulling a 2000lb. trailer behind my rig on the trail.

Both of you guys are spot on. Unless you absolutely need some special piece of equipment to come along and you are completely tapped out on space inside your rig, then by all means tow that trailer! However as mmccurdy mentions, trailers on and offroad add a new level of difficulty.

Indefatigable
04-21-2012, 01:33 AM
:cheesy: slippery one aren't you - how about if money were no object but, you could only build one rig. humor me.

LJ

For the wheeling trails that are within 1000km from me and expedition trails that start at a good days drive and last for a week. The size just works.

piginajeep
04-21-2012, 01:43 AM
so, having said all that, if money were no object, would you still purposfully build an "overland" jeep?

Yes, i love exploring the unknown (to me) I would rather have an overland vehicle than a crawler. One that would do the job of both would be best.

piginajeep
04-21-2012, 01:44 AM
:cheesy: how'd i know you would answer like that :crazyeyes:

so, i was wondering. don't trailers count as "overland" too? i mean, if you really had to, could you take your swiss army knife of a rig and pull a small trailer loaded up with fuel, water an extra spare and parts? sure, it would mean more money but, wouldn't that still count? :idontknow:

Man, I really want to build a trailer for our camping/ exploring trips.

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 01:44 AM
Yes, i love exploring the unknown (to me) I would rather have an overland vehicle than a crawler. One that would do the job of both would be best.

:cheesy: have you been following the conversation or just jumping in at the end :crazyeyes:

piginajeep
04-21-2012, 02:07 AM
:cheesy: have you been following the conversation or just jumping in at the end :crazyeyes:

I ignored the middle :)

taher2.1
04-21-2012, 02:34 AM
so, having said all that, if money were no object, would you still purposfully build an "overland" jeep?

I would still stay with 35 and overland mods and use the rest of the money to travel around the world. A friend of mine has done it on his bike in 2010 and since than that is my dream trip..

Also if someone wants overland capable....why not Sportmobile....price is $80000 to $110000 with 15 years finance with Dana 60 front and back :yup:

GCM 2
04-21-2012, 02:45 AM
BTW, you might enjoy the read over on the Project-JK fan page:

http://www.facebook.com/projectjk#!/projectjk/posts/274101966014537

Even Mel couldn't resist getting in on the action :cheesy:

Dude! I was following that along the Project JK Facebook.....man there are some really sensitive peeps out there on this subject!

mmccurdy
04-21-2012, 02:48 AM
I ignored the middle :)

It's okay there were a lot of words to read. You didn't miss much. :rolleyes2:

:beer:

piginajeep
04-21-2012, 02:52 AM
It's okay there were a lot of words to read. You didn't miss much. :rolleyes2:

:beer:

Haha... No kidding.

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 03:01 AM
http://wayalife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1755&d=1334977219

............

wolfguy09(papabear)
04-21-2012, 03:06 AM
here where i live, most any jeeps would be considered for both, we have hills, wilderness, mud and no dessert. A snorkel would be kind of useless in most aspects around here, but a roof rack and winch would be a must. I think you can have all 3 and have it be considered both, just label it as you use it. then you can change it whenever you want =p

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 03:10 AM
here where i live, most any jeeps would be considered for both, we have hills, wilderness, mud and no dessert. A snorkel would be kind of useless in most aspects around here, but a roof rack and winch would be a must. I think you can have all 3 and have it be considered both, just label it as you use it. then you can change it whenever you want =p

a roof rack? really? man, i always found mine would get hung up in the trees and throw my center of gravity off. it was needed back when we just had our TJ but man, i hated it and thought it got in the way more than anything.

piginajeep
04-21-2012, 03:12 AM
What's the point in a roof rack?? To haul more shit and raise the center of gravity?

What do people haul on them, I can't haul inside or on the bumper?

I thought about one for my two door then realized the 4 door made more sense

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 03:16 AM
here's our old overland expedition vehicle...

http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=277064

http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=277052

when you got 3 people you need to haul plus a dog, you need all the help you can get but it sucks. so long as i can help it, i would never go this route again.

piginajeep
04-21-2012, 03:25 AM
here's our old overland expedition vehicle...

when you got 3 people you need to haul plus a dog, you need all the help you can get but it sucks. so long as i can help it, i would never go this route again.

The rear big ass Hanson basket would be my alternative

Still love your old TJ

4x4Jesus
04-21-2012, 04:06 AM
I don't know if it was mentioned yet but isn't Power Line Patrols whole buisness "overland" and they cloned Moby seems to work great for them.

Vulpine
04-21-2012, 06:24 PM
GSM early on came up with the right definition, then totally overlooked the obvious by saying he could rent a car to do most of it. I'll tell you something: those pioneers' Conestoga covered wagons didn't have paved or even dirt roads to run the overland trails. Living in the desert as most of you do, the countryside is flat and your rock crawling is for fun, not for the intent of getting from--for instance--Maine to Oregon without traveling paved roads or riding the Appalachian trail (not the Blue Mountain Parkway) from Alabama to Vermont.

Think about the old African safaris. Those people had to carry their homes in their vehicles and those vehicles had to handle all kinds of terrain from dry desert flats to mucky river marshes. They needed a vehicle that not only could carry from 2 to 4 people inside, but they had to carry their entire living supplies--water, fuel, food (though they could hunt for some of that) ammunition and any other scientific data gathering materials. Think about the group of scientists that drove a pair of Jeep Wrangler Unlimiteds (overland equipped) up the slopes of a sleeping 15,000 foot volcano. To be bluntly obvious, a roof rack is a necessity for that kind of work.

We're not talking about a 1- or 2-day trail ride; we're talking about going places no other vehicle has gone and needing to live out of their vehicle for perhaps weeks at a time. A rental car simply cannot do that and quite honestly your typical rental car couldn't even survive the Pan-American highway from Peru to Alaska. That rental car could probably not handle a cross-country run from Kamchatka to Moscow in Russia. That is what an Overland rig is all about.

Until now, the best overland rig in the world was the stereotypical Land Rover Discovery(? Not absolutely certain of the model) you saw in all the old Safari movies. The Jeep JK Unlimited is America's first real challenger for that title.

wayoflife
04-21-2012, 06:51 PM
GSM early on came up with the right definition, then totally overlooked the obvious by saying he could rent a car to do most of it. I'll tell you something: those pioneers' Conestoga covered wagons didn't have paved or even dirt roads to run the overland trails. Living in the desert as most of you do, the countryside is flat and your rock crawling is for fun, not for the intent of getting from--for instance--Maine to Oregon without traveling paved roads or riding the Appalachian trail (not the Blue Mountain Parkway) from Alabama to Vermont.

Think about the old African safaris. Those people had to carry their homes in their vehicles and those vehicles had to handle all kinds of terrain from dry desert flats to mucky river marshes. They needed a vehicle that not only could carry from 2 to 4 people inside, but they had to carry their entire living supplies--water, fuel, food (though they could hunt for some of that) ammunition and any other scientific data gathering materials. Think about the group of scientists that drove a pair of Jeep Wrangler Unlimiteds (overland equipped) up the slopes of a sleeping 15,000 foot volcano. To be bluntly obvious, a roof rack is a necessity for that kind of work.

We're not talking about a 1- or 2-day trail ride; we're talking about going places no other vehicle has gone and needing to live out of their vehicle for perhaps weeks at a time. A rental car simply cannot do that and quite honestly your typical rental car couldn't even survive the Pan-American highway from Peru to Alaska. That rental car could probably not handle a cross-country run from Kamchatka to Moscow in Russia. That is what an Overland rig is all about.

Until now, the best overland rig in the world was the stereotypical Land Rover Discovery(? Not absolutely certain of the model) you saw in all the old Safari movies. The Jeep JK Unlimited is America's first real challenger for that title.

Yeah, but once again, we're talking about here in America, NOT the Pan-American highway from Peru to Alaska. Here, you need to stick to designated trails and, while I could take you on 4-5 day trail rides through some of the most remote regions of Sierra Nevada or Great Basin Desert where you do have to live out of your Jeep, civilization is still relatively near and certainly not out of the reach of my Spot GPS locator.

My biggest issue is with this idea that there is supposedly a way to specifically make an "overland" JK and that it is somehow better than a well built up JK. And, I have yet to hear a single person prove it. I want to hear actual experiences where a highly built JK broke down and BECAUSE it had specialized aftermarket parts, was left high and dry. Or, I want to hear actual experiences where a guy in a "overland" style JK broke down and was saved because of his minimal build and his ability to find parts in a local town. I hear all kinds of great stories and imagined predicaments but, I have yet to hear any specific facts proving this whole idea of "overland" being somehow better. But hey, that's just me.

Vulpine
04-21-2012, 07:16 PM
Yeah, but once again, we're talking about here in America, NOT the Pan-American highway from Peru to Alaska. Here, you need to stick to designated trails and, while I could take you on 4-5 day trail rides through some of the most remote regions of Sierra Nevada or Great Basin Desert where you do have to live out of your Jeep, civilization is still relatively near and certainly not out of the reach of my Spot GPS locator.

My biggest issue is with this idea that there is supposedly a way to specifically make an "overland" JK and that it is somehow better than a well built up JK. And, I have yet to hear a single person prove it. I want to hear actual experiences where a highly built JK broke down and BECAUSE it had specialized aftermarket parts, was left high and dry. Or, I want to hear actual experiences where a guy in a "overland" style JK broke down and was saved because of his minimal build and his ability to find parts in a local town. I hear all kinds of great stories and imagined predicaments but, I have yet to hear any specific facts proving this whole idea of "overland" being somehow better. But hey, that's just me.

I guess that's where the concept of "off road" and "overland" differs. Quite honestly, as you said it would be difficult to consider overlanding here in the US; our country is in its way simply overpopulated and there's very little real wilderness left. Many of the types of overland trails I would consider are either illegal to even attempt or in some cases purposely blocked. When I lived out in Colorado, I found a stretch of 19th Century railroad bed that had eventually been replaced by the Moffat tunnel. You could stand beside the roadbed next to a creek only a couple miles off I-70 and follow the roadbed by eye all the way up about 5 miles to where the track had to cut through a short tunnel simply because trains couldn't make the curve around the end of the spur.
I actually watched somebody in an off-road rig (I think it was a pickup with a bed topper) drive all the way up and into that tunnel, only to back out and have to back all the way down the trail because he had no place to turn around. Honestly, a TJ would have done no better because those old roadbeds were barely wide enough for the 4'8" track gauge plus another foot or two for the ties and ballast. Believe me, that drop off looked scary even to me because the slopes on those mountains approached 75-80° in many places. Add the high altitude and most rigs didn't have a whole lot of power to get themselves out of trouble.

My point is that I agree about the lack of necessity for a true overland-rigged Jeep in the US, but places both north and south might have every reason to have one.

A quickie after thought here might be to consider the overlander as a kind of off-road-capable micro-motorhome for a couple or family of three. It's big enough to carry everything they need into a remote area and let them camp there for at least a week. Sure, pickup trucks have filled that role in the US for decades, but they weren't originally designed for that purpose where a stock JK or JK Rubi could do the job straight off the showroom floor. Obviously the snorkel is intended to let it ford streams that may rise over the hood of the vehicle and carrying gear on top keeps it from getting wet when fording those streams. Outside of that, the rig may be almost completely stock.

taher2.1
04-21-2012, 07:18 PM
Eddie...I want in on the next Sierra Nevada trip :thumb:

P.S ..I am going to start posting more...That "Junior Member' title is bugging me

Vulpine
04-21-2012, 07:30 PM
Eddie...I want in on the next Sierra Nevada trip :thumb:

P.S ..I am going to start posting more...That "Junior Member' title is bugging me

Yeah. With this post I match you for number of posts and I've only been a member for about 2 hours.:bleh: (well, almost. I thought I had 7 already.)

StrizzyChris
04-21-2012, 07:57 PM
Quite honestly, as you said it would be difficult to consider overlanding here in the US; our country is in its way simply overpopulated and there's very little real wilderness left. Many of the types of overland trails I would consider are either illegal to even attempt or in some cases purposely blocked.

Thats what makes Overland in the US a trend or vehicle fashion statement rather than a vehicle fit for function! If we were in africa there may be some arguement, but even then its a weak one! Wheel width, turning radius, etc in one argument against a Jeep in one scenario will later be the advantage in another scenario. There is never a perfect build for every scenario, if so there would only be one offroad vehicle in production. :twocents:

taher2.1
04-21-2012, 10:14 PM
Yeah. With this post I match you for number of posts and I've only been a member for about 2 hours.:bleh: (well, almost. I thought I had 7 already.)

posting on the same thread doesn't count :cheesy::cheesy:

GCM 2
04-22-2012, 12:10 AM
.....Living in the desert as most of you do, the countryside is flat and your rock crawling is for fun, not for the intent of getting from--for instance--Maine to Oregon without traveling paved roads or riding the Appalachian trail (not the Blue Mountain Parkway) from Alabama to Vermont.

Have you ever been out here?? The southwest is NOT flat, I live in the 5th largest city in America and there is a 2000' mountain down the street from my house.

We do rock crawl for fun, but have you seen the canyons and washes we drive? It's terrain that even the settlers avoided. How is my jeep not set up for going across country not using paved roads :thinking: Is it the snorkel I'm missing? Again, my jeep can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but that same "overland rig" most certainly cannot go where mine goes.


".....Think about the old African safaris. Those people had to carry their homes in their vehicles and those vehicles had to handle all kinds of terrain from dry desert flats to mucky river marshes. They needed a vehicle that not only could carry from 2 to 4 people inside, but they had to carry their entire living supplies--water, fuel, food (though they could hunt for some of that) ammunition and any other scientific data gathering materials. Think about the group of scientists that drove a pair of Jeep Wrangler Unlimiteds (overland equipped) up the slopes of a sleeping 15,000 foot volcano. To be bluntly obvious, a roof rack is a necessity for that kind of work.

Sorry. But once again, my jeep can do this too and quite comfortably at that :thumb:


........We're not talking about a 1- or 2-day trail ride; we're talking about going places no other vehicle has gone and needing to live out of their vehicle for perhaps weeks at a time. A rental car simply cannot do that and quite honestly your typical rental car couldn't even survive the Pan-American highway from Peru to Alaska. That rental car could probably not handle a cross-country run from Kamchatka to Moscow in Russia. That is what an Overland rig is all about.

Actually, wrong on this point too. I have driven parts of the world (Russia, eastern Europe, the former Russian states, Pakistan, and most middle eastern countries) in 4x4's, Mitsubishi cars, Toyota Celicas, Russian Volgas, even a Ford Taurus (oddly enough in Uzbekistan) that most Offroaders here in the US wouldn't take their Rubicon into. I have been in Afghanistan since the beginning in 2001 and have seen the craziest stuff imaginable with two wheel drive cars, and yes, the average Afghan does more hardcore wheeling in his Celica just to get food than 75% of the forum readers will ever do, simply because it's a "must do to survive" and not a "sport".


......Until now, the best overland rig in the world was the stereotypical Land Rover Discovery(? Not absolutely certain of the model) you saw in all the old Safari movies. The Jeep JK Unlimited is America's first real challenger for that title.

The only reason Land Rovers ended up in these countries is because they are all former, or we're going to be, British colonies. Had the US done a bit more crusading in its early days, well they would all be driving jeeps. :thumb: BTW, I am a huge Land Rover fan, owned several, so no hating here. There is a picture of my "Overlanding" LR3 somewhere in this thread. You know why I don't have it anymore? I got tired of taking by-passes on trails and having to watch stock jeeps go on into the wilds of America without me :cheesy:

Like some throughout this thread, I'm just not getting how an "overland built" jeep/truck/car/bus/ is supposed to be better at crossing a plethora of different terrains and/or distances any better than my rig on 40" tires and coilovers.

Peace out :icon_crazy:
G

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 03:06 AM
Have you ever been out here?? The southwest is NOT flat, I live in the 5th largest city in America and there is a 2000' mountain down the street from my house.

We do rock crawl for fun, but have you seen the canyons and washes we drive? It's terrain that even the settlers avoided. How is my jeep not set up for going across country not using paved roads :thinking: Is it the snorkel I'm missing? Again, my jeep can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but that same "overland rig" most certainly cannot go where mine goes.



Sorry. But once again, my jeep can do this too and quite comfortably at that :thumb:



Actually, wrong on this point too. I have driven parts of the world (Russia, eastern Europe, the former Russian states, Pakistan, and most middle eastern countries) in 4x4's, Mitsubishi cars, Toyota Celicas, Russian Volgas, even a Ford Taurus (oddly enough in Uzbekistan) that most Offroaders here in the US wouldn't take their Rubicon into. I have been in Afghanistan since the beginning in 2001 and have seen the craziest stuff imaginable with two wheel drive cars, and yes, the average Afghan does more hardcore wheeling in his Celica just to get food than 75% of the forum readers will ever do, simply because it's a "must do to survive" and not a "sport".



The only reason Land Rovers ended up in these countries is because they are all former, or we're going to be, British colonies. Had the US done a bit more crusading in its early days, well they would all be driving jeeps. :thumb: BTW, I am a huge Land Rover fan, owned several, so no hating here. There is a picture of my "Overlanding" LR3 somewhere in this thread. You know why I don't have it anymore? I got tired of taking by-passes on trails and having to watch stock jeeps go on into the wilds of America without me :cheesy:

Like some throughout this thread, I'm just not getting how an "overland built" jeep/truck/car/bus/ is supposed to be better at crossing a plethora of different terrains and/or distances any better than my rig on 40" tires and coilovers.

Peace out :icon_crazy:
G

I've been trying to describe what an overland rig is, not trying to say it's better or worse in any way. The original question of this entire discussion was "Roof Rack + Snorkel + Overland?

The answer is, basically, "Yes." An overlander is essentially little more than a 4WD station wagon with sufficient ground clearance to travel through rough terrain and the means to travel through any environment an excursion would expect. It needs to be as completely self-sufficient as possible with the capacity to carry enough supplies to accommodate its passengers for an extended period away from ready assistance. To be quite honest, even going for the fat rock-crawling tires of WayofLife's three rigs is overkill since replacements even for that size tire may be impossible in some places that overland rigs may travel outside the United States. Of all the available vehicles around the world that could meet this need, until the JK Unlimited, that Land Rover was the vehicle of choice, followed closely by the license-built Toyota Land Cruisers of the '70s and probably before. With the drastic changes being made to the new Land Rovers, all of a sudden the JK stands to take over that role in international overland exploration.

As I said, most modified Jeeps in the US are probably far more rig than such groups would want because they would see all those modifications as wasted money. Sure, your Land Rover may take the bypasses, but overland exploration is looking for the easiest available route, not the most difficult. if a horse and cart can go over the trail, the Land Rover (Defender?) can take that same trail and the base Unlimited X, Sport and even Sahara can do just as well if not better.

As I said, most of you are too close to the issue to see the differences. I don't fault you for challenging your vehicles (hey, I have an '08 Sahara myself which took the #5 and #6 trails at Rousch Creek, PA factory stock) but again, that's not the intent or purpose of an overland rig. Get through however you can, the easiest trail you can find, and you've succeeded. Less is more in that case.

Indefatigable
04-22-2012, 03:19 AM
The only reason Land Rovers ended up in these countries is because they are all former, or we're going to be, British colonies. Had the US done a bit more crusading in its early days, well they would all be driving jeeps.

Beg to differ. Rover, and later Toyota had a much better global strategy than any of the parent companies of Jeep.

Besides, you guys tried that crusading thing back in 1812. Did not have the intended result...

MTG
04-22-2012, 03:37 AM
Have you ever been out here?? The southwest is NOT flat, I live in the 5th largest city in America and there is a 2000' mountain down the street from my house.

We do rock crawl for fun, but have you seen the canyons and washes we drive? It's terrain that even the settlers avoided. How is my jeep not set up for going across country not using paved roads :thinking: Is it the snorkel I'm missing? Again, my jeep can go everywhere an "overland rig" can go, but that same "overland rig" most certainly cannot go where mine goes.

Sorry. But once again, my jeep can do this too and quite comfortably at that :thumb:

Actually, wrong on this point too. I have driven parts of the world (Russia, eastern Europe, the former Russian states, Pakistan, and most middle eastern countries) in 4x4's, Mitsubishi cars, Toyota Celicas, Russian Volgas, even a Ford Taurus (oddly enough in Uzbekistan) that most Offroaders here in the US wouldn't take their Rubicon into. I have been in Afghanistan since the beginning in 2001 and have seen the craziest stuff imaginable with two wheel drive cars, and yes, the average Afghan does more hardcore wheeling in his Celica just to get food than 75% of the forum readers will ever do, simply because it's a "must do to survive" and not a "sport".

The only reason Land Rovers ended up in these countries is because they are all former, or we're going to be, British colonies. Had the US done a bit more crusading in its early days, well they would all be driving jeeps. :thumb: BTW, I am a huge Land Rover fan, owned several, so no hating here. There is a picture of my "Overlanding" LR3 somewhere in this thread. You know why I don't have it anymore? I got tired of taking by-passes on trails and having to watch stock jeeps go on into the wilds of America without me :cheesy:

Like some throughout this thread, I'm just not getting how an "overland built" jeep/truck/car/bus/ is supposed to be better at crossing a plethora of different terrains and/or distances any better than my rig on 40" tires and coilovers.

Peace out :icon_crazy:
G

I'd like to ask you what you do, but I'm afraid you'd have to kill me. :cheesy:

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 04:03 AM
I've been trying to describe what an overland rig is, not trying to say it's better or worse in any way. The original question of this entire discussion was "Roof Rack + Snorkel + Overland?

sorry but, that was just an attempt to be cute with the title. the question was specifically, "what constitutes "overland" anyway" and "here in America, what exactly is "overland" wheeling and, how exactly does a Jeep built up for that differ from any other good Jeep build"? based on the conversations i've had with self-proclaimed "overland" types, there is apparently a difference and, for whatever reasons they may have, one they claim makes their rigs "better".


The answer is, basically, "Yes." An overlander is essentially little more than a 4WD station wagon with sufficient ground clearance to travel through rough terrain and the means to travel through any environment an excursion would expect. It needs to be as completely self-sufficient as possible with the capacity to carry enough supplies to accommodate its passengers for an extended period away from ready assistance.

and, i would argue that i do all this now and can even go places that a 4wd station wagon with sufficient ground clearance could never hope to.


To be quite honest, even going for the fat rock-crawling tires of WayofLife's three rigs is overkill since replacements even for that size tire may be impossible in some places that overland rigs may travel outside the United States.

funny thing is, so long as i have been running my fat rock-crawling tires, i have NEVER needed to use my spare let alone look for a replacement. in fact, i have run one of these tires at almost ZERO psi for almost 100 miles without any problems. if there was a tire i had to run in a place where replacements might be difficult to find, it would be one of my fat rock-cralwing toyo's. but that's just me.


As I said, most modified Jeeps in the US are probably far more rig than such groups would want because they would see all those modifications as wasted money.

wasted money? how would they even know unless they actually had real experience running a rig with more modifications.


Sure, your Land Rover may take the bypasses, but overland exploration is looking for the easiest available route, not the most difficult. if a horse and cart can go over the trail, the Land Rover (Defender?) can take that same trail and the base Unlimited X, Sport and even Sahara can do just as well if not better.

:cheesy: It seems clear to me that you have very little knowledge or understanding of the kind of terrain some of the early settlers were forced to conquerer as they made there way out west. Believe it or not, some of these trails still exist today and you can see them for yourself if you were so inclined to journey out to them. Some still bear the deep groves cut by wagon wheels as they were hoisted up boulder strewn ravines and, I can assure you, a so called "4wd station wagon with sufficient ground clearance" could never hope to climb. Also, it doesn't take much for nature to bitchslap even a modern paved road into a near impassible chasm. In places like the desert and even sierra nevada mountains, you see it happen all the time - unplanned and unexpected obstacles and, it is because of situations like that, i have built up my rig the way it is today.


As I said, most of you are too close to the issue to see the differences.

that's a funny thing to say considering that guys like GCM 2 and myself have built up and wheeled what some would consider to be "overland" type rigs AS WELL AS what we have today. we can speak from personal experience and if anything, i would have to ask, can you?


I don't fault you for challenging your vehicles (hey, I have an '08 Sahara myself which took the #5 and #6 trails at Rousch Creek, PA factory stock) but again, that's not the intent or purpose of an overland rig.

But, as GCM 2 has said on multiple occasions, he can go anywhere an overland rig can go but, an overland rig cannot go where he can go. in spite of stereotyped understanding of what we have, we don't build our jeeps to just "challenge" them, we build them to be the best possible vehicle on and off the pavement. these are our daily drivers and they are what we use to head out into the middle of nowhere for extended periods of time. we live out of them, are fully self-sufficient and enough so that we can even help a broken down overland rig that we come across.


Get through however you can, the easiest trail you can find, and you've succeeded. Less is more in that case.

Maybe the trails you have back east never change, are constant and always have easy lines you can take but out in the west, a single flash flood or avalanch can wipe out any trail that once existed in an instant and, it happens all the time. when that happens, there is no less to be more to have.

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 04:16 AM
Thats what makes Overland in the US a trend or vehicle fashion statement rather than a vehicle fit for function! If we were in africa there may be some arguement, but even then its a weak one! Wheel width, turning radius, etc in one argument against a Jeep in one scenario will later be the advantage in another scenario. There is never a perfect build for every scenario, if so there would only be one offroad vehicle in production. :twocents:

i'd have to agree, "overland" as a term is starting to sound more and more like a trendy way to refer to vehicle fashion statement. even if i were in africa, i would want a vehicle that would have the best chance of getting me to where i want to be WITHOUT having to concern myself with how easy it'll be to fix my rig when it breaks. i mean really, can you really find a JK specific rzeppa factory drive shaft somewhere between Niamey, Niger and Kempala, Uganda? i seriously doubt it.

all i can say is that our JK's have been built over time and have become what they are today through experience. i'm not trying to make a rig that is only good for taking on easy lines and camping or can only take on big rocks or only be nice to drive around town. i want it all and try very hard to get what i want. people can try and downplay my jeep and believe all they want that it just wouldn't as good as an "overland" built jeep in some situations but, i would challenge them to prove it.

thanks for the great conversation all. :clap2:

Indefatigable
04-22-2012, 04:33 AM
if there was a tire i had to run in a place where replacements might be difficult to find, it would be one of my fat rock-cralwing toyo's. but that's just me.
.

ROTFLMAO

I live in the 3rd biggest city in Canada and big fat rock crawling tires are special order. So are most tires for that matter, unless you drive a Honda Civic.

My Tercel's stock tires are special order to replace....

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 04:40 AM
ROTFLMAO

I live in the 3rd biggest city in Canada and big fat rock crawling tires are special order. So are most tires for that matter, unless you drive a Honda Civic.

My Tercel's stock tires are special order to replace....

my point exactly. that being the case, i would prefer to run what i have than what some may "think" they can find a replacement for with ease. experience has shown me that my toyo's have near bullet proof sidewalls and will endure just about anything i can throw at them.

mmccurdy
04-22-2012, 07:30 AM
My biggest issue is with this idea that there is supposedly a way to specifically make an "overland" JK and that it is somehow better than a well built up JK.

Out of curiosity, where are you hearing this? I don't think anyone with real-world experience would argue this point. I don't really see it in this thread or even that flamew... er... debate on FB, cost considerations notwithstanding.

BTW, Rover forums and other "communities" comprised of 99% web wheelers (or should I say "online overlanders"?) are notorious for making claims based on aesthetics, brand loyalty, gossip, hearsay, personal hangups, etc. If you can believe it, I'd say even more so than a lot of the Jeep forums we know and love. Hence most of the claims and accusations are not credible and should be taken with a giant grain of salt IMO ;)

I try to look for the guys with extensive real-world experience. I know for a fact that some of the most high profile folks over on that other popular Expedition board are very anti roof rack and RTT, for all the reasons mentioned here. Frankly, snorkels don't really come up that much among that set of folks. Likewise, many of them have been won over completely from Defenders and Range Rovers by the capability of the long wheelbase JK platform. If you look at the types of mods those guys do, they're 100% down the same lines as "well built up JK," whether the intended purpose is "overland" or otherwise.

Lifestyle-wise, I've also been very impressed with some of their vehicle system solutions to some truly epic international adventures. Let's just say a built up JK is not always the right answer there, but of course that's off topic for this thread (and possibly this board?) so I'll leave those as an exercise for the reader.

GCM 2
04-22-2012, 01:48 PM
I've been trying to describe what an overland rig is, not trying to say it's better or worse in any way. The original question of this entire discussion was "Roof Rack + Snorkel + Overland?

Completely understood, not fighting you on this :thumb: And I think that all I'm trying to do as well as the OP, Wayolife, is point out that the "overland" guys might be getting it wrong in certain aspects of building a vehicle for long distance adventuring.....which both Wayolife, I and many others have done successfully in our rigs. Easiest example to state is the JK Experience, I drove just under 1000 miles to the starting point, 900 plus miles during the event, and returned home for another almost 1000 miles logged all in one week. Some participants drove much further from N.C. to Colorado, drove the event, then returned to N.C. In fact, ironically there was not one "overland" style built rig in the line up of 22 vehicles. Hell there was even a full size GMC truck support vehicle that ran the Entire event.


......To be quite honest, even going for the fat rock-crawling tires of WayofLife's three rigs is overkill since replacements even for that size tire may be impossible in some places that overland rigs may travel outside the United States.

As Wayoflife stated, I too have yet to need my spare 40" as a replacement in 28,000 miles. However, while doing "overland" travel in foreign lands, I can't count the number of skinny little Land Rover 100-110 series, Toyota FJ75 series tires, some are still split rim tube tires. Bottom line is, I've yet to stumble into a village and not be able to get a tire hot patched from the inside.

One more aspect of skinny tires and there failure, load carrying. The weight of most "overlanding" rigs is just incredible. So why would you upgrade your tent, you cooking capabilities, showering potential, fuel capacity, potable water carrying capacity, etc...... yet do the minimum of tire and suspension upgrades? Sounds counterproductive :thinking:




... all of a sudden the JK stands to take over that role in international overland exploration.

I think you are definitely on to something here :thumb: I have a friend that is one of the founders and Editors of Overland Journal magazine, he would definitely agree with you also, but more so here in the US. The Land Rover solid axle platforms have just recently stopped being produced and the Toyota solid axle trucks are still in production, so it's to early for the JK to dominate worldwide and that may not happen if it should ever go independent suspension.



.......As I said, most modified Jeeps in the US are probably far more rig than such groups would want because they would see all those modifications as wasted money.

As Wayoflife stated, this always seems to be the case until someone is educated on why the modification is purchased and then they actually drive the vehicle with the questionable mod. My rig's build is a culmination of the best attributes of almost every aspect of all facets of the types of offroading out there. There is bleed over technology from even Formula 1 on our rigs (e.g. EVO lever suspension)


?.....Sure, your Land Rover may take the bypasses, but overland exploration is looking for the easiest available route, not the most difficult. if a horse and cart can go over the trail, the Land Rover (Defender?) can take that same trail and the base Unlimited X, Sport and even Sahara can do just as well if not better.

....that's not the intent or purpose of an overland rig. Get through however you can, the easiest trail you can find, and you've succeeded. Less is more in that case.

Absolutely, you are correct. Route selection is the first thing in exploration, the gear you bring along is tailored for the routes/terrain/environment you must traverse. Having a vehicle that is built to handle the occasional "extreme" trail can be the reason between taking a 20 foot bypass or a 60 mile detour.


Besides, you guys tried that crusading thing back in 1812. Did not have the intended result...

You are correct, cant argue with you there! Our country is great at war fighting, but we absolutely suck at nation building :doh:


Closing Comment: this is an awesome thread! As much as I love the JK Forum, I think this discussion would have devolved into some Internet shouting match. Thanks for keeping it adult like fellas :rock:

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 02:31 PM
... I'm looking at the type of person who uses those vehicles and quite honestly I'm looking at the non-vehicle specialists who use them strictly as basic transportation rather than a highly re-designed toy. Scientists on average want a vehicle straight off the showroom floor for their tasks unless the conditions warrant a specialized rig--then they tend to overspend.

GCM pointed out that people use what is available out of necessity and they tend to be far harder on their vehicles in everyday life than the average American (not saying any of us are Average when it comes to our rigs.) The two Jeeps that went up that volcano's slopes in South America were not highly modified; if I remember, they had very little modification other than to increase the load-carrying ability with roof racks over the factory hard tops. Why, when as you can say even slight modifications would have improved those Jeeps' ability to traverse the country? Could it be because factory tires were more readily available and less expensive? It's the mind-set of the user, not a "My Rig Is Better Than Yours" mind-set. Honestly, that second mind-set is almost always more liable to cause arguments and challenges (just look at this thread, for instance.)

I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to honestly answer the question as originally conceived (Ok, so you were playing with words) from a scientist's point of view. Yes, I'm fully aware of the deep-rutted trails criss-crossing from east to west. I'm aware that sometimes even the easiest trails ended up with almost impossible challenges for the pioneers. Obviously, they didn't let that stop them. Had they been driving Jeeps with winches, they probably would have just as readily hauled those rigs bodily up those ledges as they did their wagons. When you're trying to beat mountain winters in the Rockies or the Sierra Nevadas, you don't want to waste time searching for a pass that may take you hundreds of miles and weeks off your course. Remember, they were lucky if they could manage 20 miles per day. We do that in an hour or two on some of those same trails.

An overland rig then, is one able to make the trek with the least modification than can ensure the success of the mission--barring unforeseen circumstances. The old Willys Jeep, from which the Land Rover was spawned, couldn't do half--nay, even a quarter of what the modern JK does and even less when you consider the mods most of you put on your Jeeps. Oddly, as I stated earlier, my un-modified '08 Wrangler handled mildly to moderately technical trails just as well as the moderately modified TJs and YJs handled them. At the time, I chose not to try more technical trails until I could put a small lift even on my otherwise perfectly satisfactory factory rig-out.

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 02:42 PM
Out of curiosity, where are you hearing this? I don't think anyone with real-world experience would argue this point. I don't really see it in this thread or even that flamew... er... debate on FB, cost considerations notwithstanding.

while this topic is hot now, this thread is actually kind of old and got started after i had a interesting conversation with an aev fanboy. but really, it isn't the first time i've heard the arguments as to why "overland" builds are somehow better and i guess i just thought the topic would be a fun discussion to have here :cool:

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 02:53 PM
Completely understood, not fighting you on this :thumb: And I think that all I'm trying to do as well as the OP, Wayolife, is point out that the "overland" guys might be getting it wrong in certain aspects of building a vehicle for long distance adventuring.....which both Wayolife, I and many others have done successfully in our rigs. Easiest example to state is the JK Experience, I drove just under 1000 miles to the starting point, 900 plus miles during the event, and returned home for another almost 1000 miles logged all in one week. Some participants drove much further from N.C. to Colorado, drove the event, then returned to N.C. In fact, ironically there was not one "overland" style built rig in the line up of 22 vehicles. Hell there was even a full size GMC truck support vehicle that ran the Entire event.

As Wayoflife stated, I too have yet to need my spare 40" as a replacement in 28,000 miles. However, while doing "overland" travel in foreign lands, I can't count the number of skinny little Land Rover 100-110 series, Toyota FJ75 series tires, some are still split rim tube tires. Bottom line is, I've yet to stumble into a village and not be able to get a tire hot patched from the inside.

One more aspect of skinny tires and there failure, load carrying. The weight of most "overlanding" rigs is just incredible. So why would you upgrade your tent, you cooking capabilities, showering potential, fuel capacity, potable water carrying capacity, etc...... yet do the minimum of tire and suspension upgrades? Sounds counterproductive :thinking: .

Here you are quite correct, as what I stated above shows how little many of these explorers understand the vehicle they're using. They are notorious for overloading their rigs and still expecting them to be up to the task. The Land Rovers and Toyotas were surprisingly able, even if they weren't necessarily the best rig-out for the job.

Counterproductive, yes. Then again, what does a geologist or safari hunter or naturalist really know about the vehicles they use? If a brand has a reputation for getting them there and back, then that's the brand they'll use, street stock out of the showroom. Only with the JK (and perhaps the old Wagoneer?) has Jeep had anything in the same ballpark. That first British farmer who took an old Willys and put a covered body on it to create the first Land Rover saw the possibility of the Jeep as something more than a simple scout car. Jeep itself didn't see the purpose of anything bigger for more than a decade and even then they were more Jeep-styled road cars more than rough-road haulers. The Wagoneer and the old Gladiator were among Jeep's first attempts to create a proper utility vehicle. (Love the FC by the way, but I have to say driving one of those looks scary by the videos I've seen out at Moab.)




I think you are definitely on to something here :thumb: I have a friend that is one of the founders and Editors of Overland Journal magazine, he would definitely agree with you also, but more so here in the US. The Land Rover solid axle platforms have just recently stopped being produced and the Toyota solid axle trucks are still in production, so it's to early for the JK to dominate worldwide and that may not happen if it should ever go independent suspension.

Not sure even independent suspension will kill it as an overland rig, but it probably would make it harder to maintain on the trail.



As Wayoflife stated, this always seems to be the case until someone is educated on why the modification is purchased and then they actually drive the vehicle with the questionable mod. My rig's build is a culmination of the best attributes of almost every aspect of all facets of the types of offroading out there. There is bleed over technology from even Formula 1 on our rigs (e.g. EVO lever suspension)
And guess what education those scientists don't get? I've never said the mods don't make the rig more capable, but the people who choose the rig rarely understand that. And as you pointed out yourself earlier, if that suspension is loaded to or over max GVWR how much advantage do you retain?

A challenge for WayofLife and the rest of you: Try one of your more moderate trails with a weighted down rig. I'd like to know how it changes the way they perform.


Absolutely, you are correct. Route selection is the first thing in exploration, the gear you bring along is tailored for the routes/terrain/environment you must traverse. Having a vehicle that is built to handle the occasional "extreme" trail can be the reason between taking a 20 foot bypass or a 60 mile detour.

Thank you. I'm glad you agree.

Serg5000
04-22-2012, 03:03 PM
while this topic is hot now, this thread is actually kind of old and got started after i had a interesting conversation with an aev fanboy. but really, it isn't the first time i've heard the arguments as to why "overland" builds are somehow better and i guess i just thought the topic would be a fun discussion to have here :cool:
Well, seems you picked a good topic.

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 03:05 PM
... I'm looking at the type of person who uses those vehicles and quite honestly I'm looking at the non-vehicle specialists who use them strictly as basic transportation rather than a highly re-designed toy. Scientists on average want a vehicle straight off the showroom floor for their tasks unless the conditions warrant a specialized rig--then they tend to overspend.

well, i'm no scientist but, i still have been using my jeep the same as when it was stock over 5 years ago to what it has become today, strictly as basic transportation that can also take me out to the middle of nowhere.


GCM pointed out that people use what is available out of necessity and they tend to be far harder on their vehicles in everyday life than the average American (not saying any of us are Average when it comes to our rigs.) The two Jeeps that went up that volcano's slopes in South America were not highly modified; if I remember, they had very little modification other than to increase the load-carrying ability with roof racks over the factory hard tops. Why, when as you can say even slight modifications would have improved those Jeeps' ability to traverse the country? Could it be because factory tires were more readily available and less expensive? It's the mind-set of the user, not a "My Rig Is Better Than Yours" mind-set. Honestly, that second mind-set is almost always more liable to cause arguments and challenges (just look at this thread, for instance.)

are you referring to the JK's that went out to set a world record for driving a vehicle to the highest point on the planet? if so, that was back in early 2007 and there was nothing available for the JK back then. if there were, i can assure you that those high profile JK's would of had a lot more sponsors and would have been way more built up than they were.


An overland rig then, is one able to make the trek with the least modification than can ensure the success of the mission--barring unforeseen circumstances.

i guess that's where i get a little confused - do you make the least amount of modifications out of cost concerns? or, what exactly determines the need for minimalism? there are a ton of circumstances that CAN be foreseen and can be mitigated through well thought out modifications. i realize that you choose to see jeeps like my white one as some kind of "toy" but, i can assure you that it didn't always look the way it does now - EVERY change it's seen had come at the sacrifice of a factory component and as a means to help prevent it from happening again.

GCM 2
04-22-2012, 03:08 PM
...A challenge for WayofLife and the rest of you: Try one of your more moderate trails with a weighted down rig. I'd like to know how it changes the way they perform.

That's a good point, but again I would refer to the JK Experience and any parts (1-3) of the series of video "Keep it tight" by Wayalife films, here on the forum. With exception of "Carnage Canyon" in part 2, all the vehicles are completely loaded with everything they needed for the entire trip. The Adventure of the JKX is that it is point to point, there is no out on the trail and back home at the end of the day. You carry all spare parts for repairs, fluids, all clothing, food, water, everything needed to sustain for the duration. :thumb:

This is where having a capable vehicle and the skills to wheel really become the means to not destroying the rig. Truth is, the drivers are usually not as capable as their rig they have built.

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 03:11 PM
Unlike many of you, I didn't buy my Jeep with the intention of serious trail running, though as an amateur photographer and serious rail fan I wanted a rig capable of taking me places your Soccer Mom SUVs would have difficulty reaching--at best. No, my main reason for a Jeep is the ability to travel in severe weather conditions such as the typical Nor'easter that passes through my region usually a couple times each winter. You may remember that the NEC got hit only two weeks apart back in the spring of '11 and my previous vehicle simply would not have been able to go anywhere after the storms due to plows building 4-foot-high walls of snow and ice across driveways when they finally do get around to going down your street. So not only did I need a Jeep to get me around before the roads were cleared, but also to get me through that ice dam blocking me from the road. Yes, I know I can shovel it; but quite honestly I appreciate the ability to only knock the top off and not have to shovel that heavy, ice-hard layer down at the bottom that the Jeep can just motor over.

I'm not a modder because I feel I don't need to mod to go where I want to go. It's been clearly proven that a stock JK can handle trails even as technical as some of the worst Moab has to offer. Yes, modding will make handling those trails easier, but if I don't intend to do that on a regular basis, then such a mod is a waste of time and money. That said, I do still intend to do a 1" body lift and a 2" suspension lift just to make those off-road excursions I do take a little easier--as long as they don't degrade road and highway handling

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 03:19 PM
A challenge for WayofLife and the rest of you: Try one of your more moderate trails with a weighted down rig. I'd like to know how it changes the way they perform.

how much weight are we talking about here and, is the challenge to be done in a stock JK, mildly built or extremely built? over the last 5 years, i'm pretty sure i've done it.

wayoflife
04-22-2012, 03:27 PM
That's a good point, but again I would refer to the JK Experience and any parts (1-3) of the series of video "Keep it tight" by Wayalife films, here on the forum. With exception of "Carnage Canyon" in part 2, all the vehicles are completed loaded with everything they needed for the entire trip. The Adventure of the JKX is that it is point to point, there is no out on the trail and back home at the end of the day. You carry all spare parts for repairs, fluids, all clothing, food, water, everything needed to sustain for the duration. :thumb:

This is where having a capable vehicle and the skills to wheel really become the means to not destroying the rig. Truth is, the drivers are usually not as capable as their rig they have built.

couldn't agree with you more. and, as you mentioned, most of us drove our JK's to the starting point in colorado, wheeled it hard for a week and then, drove it back home. i don't know what more you could do to prove the worthyness of our jeeps and how they are built.


Unlike many of you, I didn't buy my Jeep with the intention of serious trail running, though as an amateur photographer and serious rail fan I wanted a rig capable of taking me places your Soccer Mom SUVs would have difficulty reaching--at best. No, my main reason for a Jeep is the ability to travel in severe weather conditions such as the typical Nor'easter that passes through my region usually a couple times each winter. You may remember that the NEC got hit only two weeks apart back in the spring of '11 and my previous vehicle simply would not have been able to go anywhere after the storms due to plows building 4-foot-high walls of snow and ice across driveways when they finally do get around to going down your street. So not only did I need a Jeep to get me around before the roads were cleared, but also to get me through that ice dam blocking me from the road. Yes, I know I can shovel it; but quite honestly I appreciate the ability to only knock the top off and not have to shovel that heavy, ice-hard layer down at the bottom that the Jeep can just motor over.

I'm not a modder because I feel I don't need to mod to go where I want to go. It's been clearly proven that a stock JK can handle trails even as technical as some of the worst Moab has to offer. Yes, modding will make handling those trails easier, but if I don't intend to do that on a regular basis, then such a mod is a waste of time and money. That said, I do still intend to do a 1" body lift and a 2" suspension lift just to make those off-road excursions I do take a little easier--as long as they don't degrade road and highway handling

and, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. nobody should feel they "need" to mod their jeep above and beyond what they actually need. for the purposes of this discussion, the question was in regards to people who DO feel the need to mod their jeep and do so with the specific purpose of making what they call, an "overland" build. these people spend good money on trendy brands and from what i have seen, truly believe that they've made intellectually informed decisions regarding the modifications they've made. for my purposes, i just wanted to get a better understanding of their logic and hear about their personal experiences that helped to shape it.

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 03:32 PM
That's a good point, but again I would refer to the JK Experience and any parts (1-3) of the series of video "Keep it tight" by Wayalife films, here on the forum. With exception of "Carnage Canyon" in part 2, all the vehicles are completed loaded with everything they needed for the entire trip. The Adventure of the JKX is that it is point to point, there is no out on the trail and back home at the end of the day. You carry all spare parts for repairs, fluids, all clothing, food, water, everything needed to sustain for the duration. :thumb:

This is where having a capable vehicle and the skills to wheel really become the means to not destroying the rig. Truth is, the drivers are usually not as capable as their rig they have built.

To be quite honest, I would love to join you on such an excursion--though if there were an easier bypass over some of your technical parts I would probably choose to take it. It's not necessarily that I'm afraid (Ok, maybe I am; I don't consider myself a risk-taker) but rather that my purpose would the the enjoyment of the scenery for photography and shooting things other than the Jeeps making their way up seemingly impossible rocks and grades. It's not that I'm any less impressed by the vehicles themselves so much as, for me, seeing things that most others will never see--appreciating nature in all its glory--is WHY I would go, not just the pleasure and challenge of the drive itself. For me the Jeep is a means to an end, not the end in itself. Sure, I'd probably do the same as you to prevent a recurrence of anything that broke my Jeep--but first it'd have to break my Jeep.

I envy you guys out in the dryer climes because you have the kind of beauty around you that almost explodes with color in a sunrise or sunset. Me, soft, wet hills (I don't really call them mountains after having lived in Colorado for several years) have a completely different kind of driving challenge and beauty. I don't have the kind of group you all have to go out and explore wilderness areas where even getting off the road can be a challenge around here due to all the regulations. I'd like to find a group that enjoys new scenery and the joy of the drive to those places, but most that I've discovered so far (not all) are the abusive "My Jeep Is Best" type who almost willingly risk their rigs to perform spectacular stunts when there's a simpler bypass. Yes, I did take my Sahara through some of those more challenging areas rather than bypass, but it was more to learn how to handle something I may be unable to avoid rather than doing it just for the challenge of it. On the other hand, if I had the opportunity (and the money) to grab an older rig just as a hobby, then maybe I would look at going more extreme.

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 03:40 PM
and, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. nobody should feel they "need" to mod their jeep above and beyond what they actually need. for the purposes of this discussion, the question was in regards to people who DO feel the need to mod their jeep and do so with the specific purpose of making what they call, an "overland" build. these people spend good money on trendy brands and from what i have seen, truly believe that they've made intellectually informed decisions regarding the modifications they've made. for my purposes, i just wanted to get a better understanding of their logic and hear about their personal experiences that helped to shape it.

And I was trying to offer that point of view from an outsider's stance because only a non-Jeeper (or should I say non-off-roader) does that kind of thing. Obviously the snorkel and roof rack serve a specific purpose but these people mostly assume the stock vehicle can handle the rest. Considering the types of terrain I've watch on old documentaries about reaching and photographing remote areas, their biggest concern was not flooding the engine and keeping their supplies dry rather than muscling over rocks and bridging chasms. To them the snorkel and rack are the only critical mods; the rest is handled as it happens--often by winching (yes, many of those Land Rovers carried winches) up a too-steep slope or dragging an obstacle out of the way rather than trying to go over it.

Vulpine
04-22-2012, 03:48 PM
how much weight are we talking about here and, is the challenge to be done in a stock JK, mildly built or extremely built? over the last 5 years, i'm pretty sure i've done it.

Considering that one response earlier said the Land Rovers were grossly overloaded, then let's look at about double the normal cargo capacity of a modestly-modded Jeep. I know the towing capacity of the JK Unlimited is 3500 pounds which means the hitch weight for a trailer would typically be 350 pounds. I believe (but I'm not certain at the moment) that the Unlimited is rated just over 500# plus two passengers so why not try a conservative trial at about 1000# on board.

Oh, one early commenter suggested simply using a hitch-mounted rack and in dry conditions that might more than meet the need, but fording rivers and streams means anything in that rack WILL get wet and the rack itself will affect how you approach and depart an incline. The roof rack obviously keeps the overall length of the vehicle where it belongs even if it can (and will) change the center of gravity if loaded to... say 500# or more. Get hung on branches? The safari driver would either just push through or cut the branch out of the way. Modern regulations at least in the States frown on that.

GCM 2
04-22-2012, 09:45 PM
how much weight are we talking about here and, is the challenge to be done in a stock JK, mildly built or extremely built? over the last 5 years, i'm pretty sure i've done it.

Two photos of being very heavy;

The first-
I don't know how much this Toyota Tacoma weighed, but me and a fellow teammate drove it "overland" from Jacobabad, Pakistan to Jalalabad Afghanistan in two days non stop. Back in February 2002, you could get away with stuff like this since it was actually a lot safer then. In fact the only threat was people trying to grab stuff out of the back in the slower congested sections of markets while cutting thru larger towns. Hopefully you can see the photo clear enough, not much ambient light available.

The second-
Our "overland" convoy of military and non-standard tactical vehicles getting ready to split our convoy in half to reduce signature and drive into Iraq a few weeks before the big kick off back in March of 2003. Once we launched from the allied country, we did not use one road once we crossed over the border until we hit Baghdad. The HMMWV's started at approx. 8000 lbs dry, fully loaded about 13,300lbs. The Toyota Hi-lux's were about 3700lbs dry, and fully loaded about 6000lbs.

Two scenarios of extreme weight in an "overland" vehicle, not fun, but it can be done without much incident.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 03:02 AM
Two photos of being very heavy;

The first-
I don't know how much this Toyota Tacoma weighed, but me and a fellow teammate drove it "overland" from Jacobabad, Pakistan to Jalalabad Afghanistan in two days non stop. Back in February 2002, you could get away with stuff like this since it was actually a lot safer then. In fact the only threat was people trying to grab stuff out of the back in the slower congested sections of markets while cutting thru larger towns. Hopefully you can see the photo clear enough, not much ambient light available.

The second-
Our "overland" convoy of military and non-standard tactical vehicles getting ready to split our convoy in half to reduce signature and drive into Iraq a few weeks before the big kick off back in March of 2003. Once we launched from the allied country, we did not use one road once we crossed over the border until we hit Baghdad. The HMMWV's started at approx. 8000 lbs dry, fully loaded about 13,300lbs. The Toyota Hi-lux's were about 3700lbs dry, and fully loaded about 6000lbs.

Two scenarios of extreme weight in an "overland" vehicle, not fun, but it can be done without much incident.

Ok, obviously you were using pickups and HMMVs for those "overland" runs and in your case they were through desert terrain which does make it a little easier. You do also verify my point that those pickups weren't very heavily modified--if at all. Now, if you want to push the modified Jeeps, then the challenge I offer is to ask them to do say 500 miles at about 2000# over their GVWR. I suggested 1000# over earlier simply because I want to know how it changes the way they're driven as compared to the typical load for most of these Jeeps. I want to know if the mods do make "Overlanding" easier or if those mods are stressed by the heavier loads and force the driver to change his driving style. What changes, if any, would be suggested after making this run to still keep it safe and reliable? If you wanted to make it a competition, then take a stock JK Unlimited "X" (sport or whatever base model is available), a modest upgrade with say 3" to 4" of lift and 35" rubber rather than stock 32" and then maybe a more extreme rig like one of WayofLife's "play" Jeeps as compared to his everyday driver all loaded with the same amount of cargo--again at least 1000 pounds over rated GVWR.

wayoflife
04-23-2012, 03:18 AM
ummmm, i don't own any "play" rigs. ALL my jeeps are daily drivers. as far as weight goes, a stock JK comes in at just under 5,000 lbs. my white JK weighs in at about 6,500 lbs. unloaded. with gear, it's more like 7,000 lbs. or more.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 01:06 PM
Apologies if that was taken as insult. I watch you mod those rigs so much that I can't imagine all 3 as dailys.

I still want to know how overloading one to an extreme like the "overland" trucks affects its performance. That's why the challenge to you. I'm asking for a semi-scientific test rather than a "go as you are" run.

wayoflife
04-23-2012, 02:40 PM
Apologies if that was taken as insult. I watch you mod those rigs so much that I can't imagine all 3 as dailys.

insult? :thinking: no, no insult but, you clearly haven't been watching very carefully or for very long. if you had been following us over the last 5 years, you would have seen our jeep get built up and wheeled in a variety of stages from stock to what you see now. you may not be able to imagine our JK's as being daily drivers but, that might have something to do with the fact that you having absolutely no experience with something like them. i suspect, if you or other overland types had, you might just be able to see things a little differently.


I still want to know how overloading one to an extreme like the "overland" trucks affects its performance. That's why the challenge to you. I'm asking for a semi-scientific test rather than a "go as you are" run.

too much weight will throw your center of gravity way off and will put a lot more strain on drive train components such as axle shafts, drive shafts and ring & pinions. more weight will also force you to work a lot harder even on easier obstacles and will only aggravate the problem. in spite of what you seem to think, we haven't always run pro rock 60's and only do so now thanks to learning the hard way just how much or, should i say, how little factory drive train componets can handle.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 02:53 PM
insult? :thinking: no, no insult but, you clearly haven't been watching very carefully or for very long. if you had been following us over the last 5 years, you would have seen our jeep get built up and wheeled in a variety of stages from stock to what you see now. you may not be able to imagine our JK's as being daily drivers but, that might have something to do with the fact that you having absolutely no experience with something like them. i suspect, if you or other overland types had, you might just be able to see things a little differently.

Well, I can't argue any of that, but at least part of the issue is that I don't get the opportunity to go out on trails as much as you. The east is simply too crowded and you're mostly limited to organized off-road parks unless you personally know somebody with a lot of varied land. Rousch Creek is a lot of fun for what I've done there, but it's not the same as doing a point-to-point run as you guys tend to do out west.




too much weight will throw your center of gravity way off and will put a lot more strain on drive train components such as axle shafts, drive shafts and ring & pinions. more weight will also force you to work a lot harder even on easier obstacles and will only aggravate the problem. in spite of what you seem to think, we haven't always run pro rock 60's and only do so now thanks to learning the hard way just how much or, should i say, how little factory drive train componets can handle.

I'll accept and agree with everything you say, but it still doesn't answer the question of why the people who do "overland" driving choose to overload a basically stock vehicle or answer your own questions about why they feel an overloaded 'stock' vehicle is more important that a well-loaded if admittedly modified one. I've never argued that modifying a rig can't improve its ability to get through, but does overloading that modded suspension actually make it worse than a stock rig? You may think you had a simple question when you started, but once you start looking into the "whys and wherefores", the question quickly gets complicated.

GCM 2
04-23-2012, 03:31 PM
Ok, obviously you were using pickups and HMMVs for those "overland" runs and in your case they were through desert terrain which does make it a little easier.

Okay, this is exactly what this thread is about what constitutes an "overland type rig". My definition= There is no such thing, its just a fancy name to make some mundane task of traveling from point A to point B more "mysterious" or "romantic". You either have a vehicle that can make it thru the terrain you have chosen to drive or you don't. You are really showing that you "don't know what you don't know". I am really starting to think by everything you are writing that you have no actual first hand experience with any of what we are discussing here, but only what you may have read and/or fantasize it being about. Time and time again, Wayoflife and I have provided proof of our experience on the subject, and all though neither of us know it all, we have a pretty realistic grasp of the subject of offroading. Personally, I have been into "overlanding"/offroading/wheeling/4x4'ing/off highway vehicle driving/long distance special reconnaissance for 35 years (I am 45, started driving offroad at 10 y/o), and for 27 of those years its been part of my proffesion. I am still learning everytime I hit the trail. The photos I provided are only two of literally thousands that I have from trips from around the world in some of the most austere locations imaginable. By the way, simply being in "desert terrain" does not make it any easier, in fact crossing through two weeks worth of desert is MUCH harder than any other type of terrain. There is a reason the Saharah is not populated with cities or people. People die in the vast expanses of desert, because if their vehicle fails and they are forced to walk out they don' make it.

Oh, and one more point to increase the level of difficulty since you seem to think that it may not have been hard enough during this overlanding venture.....All this travel is done in the hours of darkness, while wearing AN-PVS6 night vision, using zero white light or infrared light sources.


You do also verify my point that those pickups weren't very heavily modified--if at all

No where did I write that the vehicles in the two pictures were stock. I would not expect you to know that in Special Operations, there is no such thing as stock, we moddify everything because the missions require the best equipment for the hardest job. The Tacoma actually had a FabTech 2" lift kit, and much wider than stock tires, along with lots of other items to make it better suited for offroad work. The HMMWVs, the list of upgrades on those is too long to list, but lets just say the suspension, half shafts, tires and front and rear winches were a start. The Toyota Hi-Lux's, well for starters there were the roof racks :cheesy: the axles, lockers, winches,



..Now, if you want to push the modified Jeeps, then the challenge I offer.....

Okay, now your are just starting to sound ridiculous. These challenges are being offered for what reason? If we keep passing the test, are you going to keep increasing the level of difficulty with a new challenge until we fail miserably at providing proof of how a modified jeep can't do it? :thinking: Come on man, lets keep this realistic.

wayoflife
04-23-2012, 03:45 PM
I'll accept and agree with everything you say, but it still doesn't answer the question of why the people who do "overland" driving choose to overload a basically stock vehicle or answer your own questions about why they feel an overloaded 'stock' vehicle is more important that a well-loaded if admittedly modified one.

and i agree, it makes no sense to me how people can purposefully choose to overload a basically stock vehicle, give a cool name like "overland" style and actually believe it to be a better or, should i say, a more intellegent way to go. they talk about how much weight they can carry how they can find spare parts more easily but, most can't even tell me what parts they expect to break or why they would break.


I've never argued that modifying a rig can't improve its ability to get through, but does overloading that modded suspension actually make it worse than a stock rig? You may think you had a simple question when you started, but once you start looking into the "whys and wherefores", the question quickly gets complicated.

no. a good portion of a well modified vehicle's weight comes from things like drive train modifications and tires/wheels. this weight is all "unsprung" weight and will actually help keep all four on the floor and by virtue of it, provide better traction and stability.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 03:51 PM
Okay, this is exactly what this thread is about what constitutes an "overland type rig". My definition= There is no such thing, its just a fancy name to make some mundane task of traveling from point A to point B more "mysterious" or "romantic". You either have a vehicle that can make it thru the terrain you have chosen to drive or you don't. You are really showing that you "don't know what you don't know". I am really starting to think by everything you are writing that you have no actual first hand experience with any of what we are discussing here, but only what you may have read and/or fantasize it being about. Time and time again, Wayoflife and I have provided proof of our experience on the subject, and all though neither of us know it all, we have a pretty grasp of the subject of offroading. Personally, I have been into "overlanding"/offroading/wheeling/4x4'ing/off highway vehicle driving/long distance special reconnaissance for 35 years (I am 45, started driving offroad at 10 y/o), and for 27 of those years its been part of my proffesion. I am still learning everytime I hit the trail. The photos I provided are only two of literally thousands that I have from trips from around the world in some of the most austere locations imaginable. By the way, simply being in "desert terrain" does not make it any easier, in fact crossing through two weeks worth of desert is MUCH harder than any other type of terrain. There is a reason the Saharah is not populated with cities or people. People die in the vast expanses of desert, because if their vehicle fails and they are forced to walk out they don' make it.

Oh, and one more point to increase the level of difficulty since you seem to think that it may not have been hard enough during this overlanding venture.....All this travel is done in the hours of darkness, while wearing AN-PVS6 night vision, using zero white light or infrared light sources.



No where did not say the vehicles in the two pictures were stock. I would not expect you to know that in Special Operations, there is no such thing as stock, we moddify everything because the missions require the best equipment for the hardest job. The Tacoma actually had a FabTech 2" lift kit, and much wider than stock tires, along with lots of other items to make it better suited for offroad work. The HMMWVs, the list of upgrades on those is too long to list, but lets just say the suspension, half shafts, tires and front and rear winches were a start. The Toyota Hi-Lux's, well for starters there were the roof racks :cheesy: the axles, lockers, winches,




Okay, now your are just starting to sound ridiculous. These challenges are being offered for what reason? If we keep passing the test, are you going to keep increasing the level of difficulty with a new challenge until we fail miserably at providing proof of how a modified jeep can't do it?

Please don't be a troll.

Start looking at and paying attention to my statements. You, sir, were a specialist doing a military mission, not a scientist doing ordinary research. There is, whether you want to believe it or not, a difference. I'm certainly not going to argue that military and security services modify their vehicles--that's really a given. However, do you think all those Toyotas the other guys are using are as modified as your own? Where's your tactical advantage if they are? Again I say you are far too close to the question.

What test do you think you're passing? I haven't seen any measurable proof from either of you that the typical, non-military "overlander" has any real advantage, or disadvantage by being modified. I'm asking for measurable documentation. WayofLife enjoys recording his mods and videoing them; why not take it a step farther and honestly document the fact that modded is an advantage? I'm not asking you to do "Top Gear" type of stupidity for entertainment, I'm asking for visible proof that mods make a difference but that there may be such a thing as taking those mods overboard when going from point A to point B over highly variable terrain. Desert terrain alone (and I do include those mountains of yours out in California, etc.) does not offer the same kinds of challenge as a marsh (Piney Woods, NJ?) or forest. I haven't argued that you've done or not done what you claim--obviously you have since you have photographic proof of some of your mission vehicles. Please note however that the Toyotas you photographed are NOT Jeeps and at least don't appear to have any notable mods (which is the way the US military tends to like it.)

I might also note that one of the most interesting military 4x4s I ever drove was a 1964 Chevrolet Step Van (yes, something like the current UPS or FedEx delivery trucks) that remained in service far longer than some one-year-old 1978 Ford 4x4 pickups operating at the same base at the same time. More than one of those Fords was sold as surplus because they burned through their allotted maintenance funding within 2 years. Strangely, the US military dropped Jeeps in favor of those HMMWVs which while they are superior off-road vehicles, they're also far more expensive to maintain by every reference I've seen so far. The J-8 pickup such as those used by the Saudi military (and others) seems the more economical vehicle even if it isn't armored to the gills and soft as tissue paper. Sometimes--just sometimes--agility is more important than power.

Please try to settle down and realize I'm trying to hold a peaceful discussion based on the differences in how a vehicle is chosen for a specific type of use and not necessarily which one is really better for that use.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 04:11 PM
and i agree, it makes no sense to me how people can purposefully choose to overload a basically stock vehicle, give a cool name like "overland" style and actually believe it to be a better or, should i say, a more intellegent way to go. they talk about how much weight they can carry how they can find spare parts more easily but, most can't even tell me what parts they expect to break or why they would break.

Forgive me for clipping the second part of your response because I can agree with it fully. I can and will agree with your first part as well, but for the sake of this debate I'm being the Devil's Advocate (which GCM 2 is taking as trolling) and trying to put forth the arguments these people would use. When you consider what has been used in many of these countries over the years, quite obviously simplicity is paramount. Most of these explorers have been using Land Rovers (and by extension the Toyota versions) for so long that parts are readily available and they're simple enough to repair with baling wire and chewing gum (a simile that in some cases were quite factual as well.) Tires, too, are readily available in the event one or more gets cut down or destroyed. GCM did mention that some of these places he went through had the ability to at least patch a puncture, but could they rebuild a ripped sidewall? It seems out there the old tube still offers an advantage over tubeless, though some newer tires no longer even need to be aired up to get you through at least for a few miles. Obviously, bead-locker wheels will keep that otherwise flat tire from spinning off the rims.

You see, I do understand the advantages of modding, but I can also see some of the advantages of using a different kind of vehicle altogether--though I personally believe the modded Jeep overwhelms the simplicity of the old, stock Land Rover. Times have changed and technology has re-written the rules. What worked well 50 years ago or even 20 years ago may no longer work for those "overlanders" today. If it were me trying to make such a trip, I'd probably choose a Jeep Wagonneer or Gladiator with suspension mods over even one of the JKs today because our computer-controlled engines aren't as easy to work on without specialized tools. If I had to choose a modern vehicle, however, I'd probably choose a JK-based rig.

What I really want is a JK-based pickup, whether it be the FC or the JK-8 shown out at Moab this year.

zeddjb
04-23-2012, 04:23 PM
I found this article:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/vehicules/4x4/jeep/1021-why-the-jeep-wrangler-is-the-new-land-rover-defender.htmli

I didn't read through it all, but kind of an interesting read.

wayoflife
04-23-2012, 04:32 PM
When you consider what has been used in many of these countries over the years, quite obviously simplicity is paramount. Most of these explorers have been using Land Rovers (and by extension the Toyota versions) for so long that parts are readily available and they're simple enough to repair with baling wire and chewing gum (a simile that in some cases were quite factual as well.) Tires, too, are readily available in the event one or more gets cut down or destroyed. GCM did mention that some of these places he went through had the ability to at least patch a puncture, but could they rebuild a ripped sidewall? It seems out there the old tube still offers an advantage over tubeless, though some newer tires no longer even need to be aired up to get you through at least for a few miles. Obviously, bead-locker wheels will keep that otherwise flat tire from spinning off the rims.

honestly, i don't know if i would agree with any of this and think it can be argued that these explorers you speak of have just been using what was available to them. i have a hard time believing any of them would choose to run substandard equipment that is prone to breaks and failures on purpose. as far as tires go, if durability is paramount, why not just run a solid tire? i have friends that work at the los angeles county vector control and that's what they use on their jeeps as all they do all day long is drive around in riverbeds strewn with tire chewing mangled shopping carts and wrecked cars. if a little bit of comfort is what you're looking for then yeah, you'd have to go with a tire that holds air but again, i'd have to think that it would make more sense to run a tire that is durable from the get go. if you only knew how many tires i've tested out and how many sidewalls i've destroyed, you would know why i now run toyo mt's. for all the hell i've been able to throw at them, they have NEVER failed me.

just as a reminder, i drive my jeeps everywhere including trails that are so far away that just getting to the trailhead eats up half of your gas. in remote places like these, suffering a breakdown or flat can be a real problem even in a place like america and, that's why i have built up my jeeps the way they are - i need them to be reliable as possible. while factory replacement parts or stock tires may be easier to come by, you still need to get back off the trail to find them. me, i would just prefer not to break down in the first place but, that's just me.


You see, I do understand the advantages of modding, but I can also see some of the advantages of using a different kind of vehicle altogether--though I personally believe the modded Jeep overwhelms the simplicity of the old, stock Land Rover. Times have changed and technology has re-written the rules. What worked well 50 years ago or even 20 years ago may no longer work for those "overlanders" today. If it were me trying to make such a trip, I'd probably choose a Jeep Wagonneer or Gladiator with suspension mods over even one of the JKs today because our computer-controlled engines aren't as easy to work on without specialized tools. If I had to choose a modern vehicle, however, I'd probably choose a JK-based rig.

What I really want is a JK-based pickup, whether it be the FC or the JK-8 shown out at Moab this year.

again with "simplicity" somehow being better. exactly what do you base your personal belief that a modded jeep overwhelms it and in what way? what scenario are you invisioning that would make an old stock land rover a better way to go?

GCM 2
04-23-2012, 04:33 PM
Start looking at and paying attention to my statements. You, sir, were a specialist doing a military mission, not a scientist doing ordinary research. There is, whether you want to believe it or not, a difference.

Absolutley there is a difference between the two, but we are talking vehicles and driving here. Driving across/thru/over/under obstacles and terrain are done the same way no matter what you carry for the mission. The basic offroad and on road driving principles do not change, whether it is stock or modified only allows you to tackle a tougher obstacle or make tackling it easier.



What test do you think you're passing? I haven't seen any measurable proof from either of you

The test is the challenge you issued in your previous post with modified jeeps and the specified #'s. Below from Wayoflife, that is a lot of weight and it seems to be proof enough when you watch any of his video, most specifically any from the "Keep it Tight" series

wayoflife
ummmm, i don't own any "play" rigs. ALL my jeeps are daily drivers. as far as weight goes, a stock JK comes in at just under 5,000 lbs. my white JK weighs in at about 6,500 lbs. unloaded. with gear, it's more like 7,000 lbs. or more.



Please try to settle down and realize I'm trying to hold a peaceful discussion based on the differences in how a vehicle is chosen for a specific type of use and not necessarily which one is really better for that use.

My apologies if I came across as being upset or irritated, but this is the internet and not TV, thats why I use the emoticons available for choosing on the left when posting, so you can gauge my disposition :thumb: No hurt feelings here. But I do think you are showing a huge lack of understanding on the topic of offroading in general. My position still stands that it is all the same, you can church it up or make it more mysterious with special words, but "overlanding" and "overlanding rigs" are simply feel good words and definitions of something that did not need a new classification.

Cheers and heres to civility :beer:

G

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 05:06 PM
again with "simplicity" somehow being better. exactly what do you base your personal belief that a modded jeep overwhelms it and in what way? what scenario are you invisioning that would make an old stock land rover a better way to go?

Looking at modern engines, they are all controlled by computers one way or another. A broken wire may be fixed easily, but what about a broken circuit board? Would you even know where to look? Extreme conditions can be very harsh on computer electronics and even a mere cold solder joint could leave you stuck out in the boonies with no way back. That's the sort of simplicity that the old Jeeps and Land Rovers carried--as well as most other cars before the '70s. Fix a wire? Easy. Fix a carb? Still relatively easy. What about those computer-driven injectors? What about the electronic ignition as compared to the old physical distributer? Simplicity of repair is just as important in the event of breakdown as the overall reliability of the vehicle where you can't expect a tow truck (or a helicopter) to recover you. That still doesn't make the older rig the best choice, just the easiest choice when options are limited. Again, I'm offering the kind of argument said "overlander" would use, not my own personal opinions.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 05:19 PM
Absolutley there is a difference between the two, but we are talking vehicles and driving here. Driving across/thru/over/under obstacles and terrain are done the same way no matter what you carry for the mission. The basic offroad and on road driving principles do not change, whether it is stock or modified only allows you to tackle a tougher obstacle or make tackling it easier.




The test is the challenge you issued in your previous post with modified jeeps and the specified #'s. Below from Wayoflife, that is a lot of weight and it seems to be proof enough when you watch any of his video, most specifically any from the "Keep it Tight" series

wayoflife
ummmm, i don't own any "play" rigs. ALL my jeeps are daily drivers. as far as weight goes, a stock JK comes in at just under 5,000 lbs. my white JK weighs in at about 6,500 lbs. unloaded. with gear, it's more like 7,000 lbs. or more.




My apologies if I came across as being upset or irritated, but this is the internet and not TV, thats why I use the emoticons available for choosing on the left when posting, so you can gauge my disposition :thumb: No hurt feelings here. But I do think you are showing a huge lack of understanding on the topic of offroading in general. My position still stands that it is all the same, you can church it up or make it more mysterious with special words, but "overlanding" and "overlanding rigs" are simply feel good words and definitions of something that did not need a new classification.

Cheers and heres to civility :beer:

G

What I'm trying to offer is the mind-set of these "overlanders", not whether they are right or not. I do understand the topic of offroading in general and I'll also admit to seeing a lot of idiots who think power will get you through anything when I've personally seen even stock Jeeps with a good driver succeed where that gearhead type failed. If you want to see upset, just watch one of those "superJeep" guys turn red when a near-stock Jeep or other 4x4 gets them out of a bind. I might point out that most of the type I'm trying to portray have almost no understanding of off-roading other than it's not on paved highways. To them, a dirt driveway or logging trail could be extreme off-roading. Based on some of the documentaries I watch, that type would even get stuck on what other countries call a highway.

At the same time, some of these "reality TV" programs put some people through those same situations just for the entertainment value of it to non-off-roaders. Ice Road Truckers is a prime example, especially when they do their off-season shows like "IRT-World's Most Dangerous Highways." When you consider what some of those drivers do for a living, maybe taking on dirt-road trucking might seem a lark, but the roads and conditions they have to overcome are also far different from their normal drives. I watched as several of those drivers gave up on IRT-MDH even though they were some of the toughest, self-confident and able drivers when it came to snow and ice. Again, it's all in the mind-set of the one choosing the vehicle for the task and their subsequent experience in making those runs.

I won't deny some of what you guys do regularly would scare me to death--at least until I'd succeeded at least once myself. There's a difference between skill and idiocy and while I may not have the skills, I certainly don't want to look like an idiot when push comes to shove.

wayoflife
04-23-2012, 05:42 PM
Looking at modern engines, they are all controlled by computers one way or another. A broken wire may be fixed easily, but what about a broken circuit board? Would you even know where to look? Extreme conditions can be very harsh on computer electronics and even a mere cold solder joint could leave you stuck out in the boonies with no way back. That's the sort of simplicity that the old Jeeps and Land Rovers carried--as well as most other cars before the '70s. Fix a wire? Easy. Fix a carb? Still relatively easy. What about those computer-driven injectors? What about the electronic ignition as compared to the old physical distributer? Simplicity of repair is just as important in the event of breakdown as the overall reliability of the vehicle where you can't expect a tow truck (or a helicopter) to recover you. That still doesn't make the older rig the best choice, just the easiest choice when options are limited. Again, I'm offering the kind of argument said "overlander" would use, not my own personal opinions.

eh, sorry, i'm still not buying it. i've owned old, simply built, carburated jeeps that were easy to work on but, it always needed to be worked on. i have about 100,000 miles on my big white jk and, being that i work from home, virtually ALL of those miles are from driving out to far away destinations, putting them to the test and then driving it back home again. i have taken my jeep through extreme cold, extreme heat, extreme dust and what i consider to be extreme deep water. to this day, i haven't had a single problem with the engine or any of the computer systems that would have prevented me from getting there and back. while old technology may have been simple and easy to work on, new technology has proven itself to me to be reliable and without need of being constantly worked on.

of course, this is all a moot point for the purposes of this thread which was intended to be JK specific.

Hightower
04-23-2012, 06:00 PM
If you guys are planning a trip to Alaska3 things bring fuel containers 2 my house BBQ and 3 I'm in!

MTG
04-23-2012, 06:21 PM
But wait, what about this....and what about that....and did you consider X multiplied by Y....blah blah blah.

I have enjoyed this thread, and will likely enjoy reading it further, but some of the recent posts are just getting ridiculous. :crazyeyes:

Vulpine does not seem like he will be satisfied until there is a double-blind controlled experiment performed by a group of engineers with the results published in the esteemed "Journal of Overlanding and Rockcrawling Quarterly" and even then will question the methodology and statistical validity. :cheesy:

So far, GCM has characterized it best: "This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an 'overland rig' can go, but an 'overland rig' cannot go everywhere my rig can go." I'm going to put my money on the people who actually build their rigs and have put them to the test, particularly those that use the same rig to both "overland" (or "camp" as the case may be) AND crawl over rocks. Anything else is simply a discussion of minutia.

Nevertheless, please carry on. I need something to break up my day. :yup:

GCM 2
04-23-2012, 06:28 PM
If you guys are planning a trip to Alaska3 things bring fuel containers 2 my house BBQ and 3 I'm in!

Chris, is it still cold up there....if so, then I am not going to visit you with my fuel cans.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 09:18 PM
eh, sorry, i'm still not buying it. i've owned old, simply built, carburated jeeps that were easy to work on but, it always needed to be worked on. i have about 100,000 miles on my big white jk and, being that i work from home, virtually ALL of those miles are from driving out to far away destinations, putting them to the test and then driving it back home again. i have taken my jeep through extreme cold, extreme heat, extreme dust and what i consider to be extreme deep water. to this day, i haven't had a single problem with the engine or any of the computer systems that would have prevented me from getting there and back. while old technology may have been simple and easy to work on, new technology has proven itself to me to be reliable and without need of being constantly worked on.

of course, this is all a moot point for the purposes of this thread which was intended to be JK specific.

But then, I've had to repair some of those computers on other cars for myself (hate the high price so many shops charge to fix things.) I will grant you that today's cars tend to function far longer than their predecessors, but it seems Jeep is the only brand that has gotten it right. Of course, that's also one of the reasons I own a Jeep. The one brand I really liked for its reliability no longer exists. Still, not even a JK can do everything--unless you know an inexpensive modder that can turn it into a Gladiator?

Yes, I'm going off topic now and I'm going to stay there.

Vulpine
04-23-2012, 09:31 PM
But wait, what about this....and what about that....and did you consider X multiplied by Y....blah blah blah.

I have enjoyed this thread, and will likely enjoy reading it further, but some of the recent posts are just getting ridiculous. :crazyeyes:

Vulpine does not seem like he will be satisfied until there is a double-blind controlled experiment performed by a group of engineers with the results published in the esteemed "Journal of Overlanding and Rockcrawling Quarterly" and even then will question the methodology and statistical validity. :cheesy:

So far, GCM has characterized it best: "This I know as a fact; my JK can go everywhere an 'overland rig' can go, but an 'overland rig' cannot go everywhere my rig can go." I'm going to put my money on the people who actually build their rigs and have put them to the test, particularly those that use the same rig to both "overland" (or "camp" as the case may be) AND crawl over rocks. Anything else is simply a discussion of minutia.

Nevertheless, please carry on. I need something to break up my day. :yup:

Besides, you haven't noticed that I quit the discussion. I tried to tell you all along that the arguments I was expressing were not my own but rather trying to bring up an outsider's point of view. I, personally, don't disagree with you, but you didn't want to realize I was taking a third-person viewpoint for the sake of debate.

Hightower
04-23-2012, 10:09 PM
Chris, is it still cold up there....if so, then I am not going to visit you with my fuel cans.
Greg
It's always cold in Canada, but Palm Sping on the other had is a cool 95 today with a slight breeze. :rock::brows:
You are welcome anytime time brother.:drinks:

Hightower
04-23-2012, 10:15 PM
Besides, you haven't noticed that I quit the discussion. I tried to tell you all along that the arguments I was expressing were not my own but rather trying to bring up an outsider's point of view. I, personally, don't disagree with you, but you didn't want to realize I was taking a third-person viewpoint for the sake of debate.
Whether you are arguing for the sake of a good debate or not GMC2 hit the nail on the head, I'll take Moby or GMC2 rig any where anytime and the best thing I'll get to come home too. :cheesy::cheesy:

wayoflife
04-24-2012, 02:30 AM
But then, I've had to repair some of those computers on other cars for myself (hate the high price so many shops charge to fix things.) I will grant you that today's cars tend to function far longer than their predecessors, but it seems Jeep is the only brand that has gotten it right. Of course, that's also one of the reasons I own a Jeep. The one brand I really liked for its reliability no longer exists. Still, not even a JK can do everything--unless you know an inexpensive modder that can turn it into a Gladiator?

Yes, I'm going off topic now and I'm going to stay there.

i dunno, my JK does everything i need to do and, as much as i love the gladiator, i think my 4-door is still a better all around machine.

Vulpine
04-24-2012, 02:49 AM
i dunno, my JK does everything i need to do and, as much as i love the gladiator, i think my 4-door is still a better all around machine.

I agree whole-heartedly, the JK 4-door did more than replace my previous Saturn Vue--though at a 30% loss in gas mileage. I love it for everything it does, but I have a need for something it can't do: carry 4x8' sheets of plywood, 8' planks of wood and even 20, 8-foot plastic utility tables to set up a yard sale. For that I need a pickup truck and quite honestly I want one with the ability to crawl itself out of trouble and to other Jeep-like work. I personally hate Ford and think all the modern trucks are too big and too ugly--despite the fact I recently purchased a 1990 Ford F-150 as a utility hauler. I bought the truck for a short-term need but what I really want is the Jeep truck. That's the only thing I would ever trade my Wrangler Unlimited for, but now that I have an F-150, I've got an even better trade-in vehicle. I can be a 2-Jeep house.

Vulpine
04-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Well, with one exception at least.

In doing a little more research and just downright being nosy, I found this set of definitions for Overlanding:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/what-is-overlanding/definition.html

So now this makes the original question even weirder because apparently there is no "best" overlanding vehicle because each type of overlanding can probably be improved upon by simply modding the vehicle of choice. Jeepers are overlanders even though overlanders are not necessarily Jeepers.

However, on further reading on the site, they consider "lift kits" as unnecessary because they supposedly have no functional effect on the stability and safety of the vehicle where load and agility are concerned. They suggest minimal tire size increases and only 60mm of "lift" for ground clearance only in order to ensure the stock safety and reliability of the vehicle.

You'd have to read it yourself because I believe the author of that particular article totally misunderstands even the purpose of some typical Jeep mods. He's arguing against the hot-rodders more than he is against people like yourselves. One thing that makes sense in one way but not in others is that he insists on "LT" (light truck) tires only. He believes that wider tires can (and do in many cases) restrict factory turning radii leading to reduced overall safety. He also spoke against mods like the "stinger" bumper (I do see the need in more extreme cases) but emphasizes front cage-like bumpers that include heavy headlight and grill protection along with some form of winch support.

Well, here I am repeating some of what he said and if you study that "Expedition Portal" site, especially his articles about vehicle selection and equipping you can determine for yourselves if he's right or wrong. That said, for my own purposes I would agree with some of what he says for my own rig, but I almost totally disagree with other things he says. He may be opposed to CB radios (for instance) in general, but CB at least here in the States is probably more effective and far less expensive than 3-meter HAM, even if lower range. Internationally, HAM may be the better choice. However you look at it, it appears common sense should be the ultimate rule and some people just don't have that.

wayoflife
04-24-2012, 07:31 PM
...they consider "lift kits" as unnecessary because they supposedly have no functional effect on the stability and safety of the vehicle where load and agility are concerned. They suggest minimal tire size increases and only 60mm of "lift" for ground clearance only in order to ensure the stock safety and reliability of the vehicle.

clearly, this guy has never run a properly lifted jeep and understands nothing about spring rates or articulation and how it can actually make your vehicle more stable and agile. as far as ensuring stock vehicle safety and reliability goes, i haven't the foggiest clue as to what he might be referring to and, i'd be willing to bet that he doesn't either.


He believes that wider tires can (and do in many cases) restrict factory turning radii leading to reduced overall safety.

"belief" is what people hold onto when they are unable to prove what they imagine. there is no need for "belief" when you have actual experience and first hand knowledge.


He also spoke against mods like the "stinger" bumper (I do see the need in more extreme cases) but emphasizes front cage-like bumpers that include heavy headlight and grill protection along with some form of winch support.

i'd be the first to admit that things like stingers for the most part serve no function what so ever - they just look cool.


He may be opposed to CB radios (for instance) in general, but CB at least here in the States is probably more effective and far less expensive than 3-meter HAM, even if lower range. Internationally, HAM may be the better choice. However you look at it, it appears common sense should be the ultimate rule and some people just don't have that.

even if HAM radios were dirt cheap, loose and open conversations on them are kinda discouraged. CB's may not have the range of a HAM but, they are very practical and useful for group communication and for even spotting. but hey, what do i know.

GCM 2
04-25-2012, 01:41 AM
An absolutely fantastic example of very well built, very capable rigs doing some "overlanding"


Overlanding, this is it!! (http://wayalife.com/content.php?73-KEEP-IT-TIGHT-The-JK-Experience-Black-Bear-Pass-Billings-Canyon-Part-4)

knnphillips
04-25-2012, 01:52 AM
An absolutely fantastic example of very well built, very capable rigs doing some "overlanding"

Overlanding, this is it!! (http://wayalife.com/content.php?73-KEEP-IT-TIGHT-The-JK-Experience-Black-Bear-Pass-Billings-Canyon-Part-4)

Wait isn't that the same examples y'all have given repetitively? lol

mmccurdy
04-25-2012, 05:11 AM
You'd have to read it yourself because I believe the author of that particular article totally misunderstands even the purpose of some typical Jeep mods.

I don't think that's a fair characterization of his position. I think he fully understands their intent and purpose, and he is making an explicit choice not to run them for practical reasons. I think some of the "safety" arguments are a little trumped up, but it's hard to argue with the logic that says if you don't need a big lift and MT tires to get where you want to go, there is no reason to run them. There are very few corners of this country let alone the world that really can't be reached on a very mildly built JK but can be reached on a Moby-like build, and that's been my point all along. Can Moby dominate on obstacles? Yes, without a doubt. But keep in mind that's not the goal of the "overland" sport. Will Moby be more reliable? Maybe. Will it be more comfortable getting there? Probably. Will it be less "safe"? Maybe, but by a margin so small that it probably doesn't matter in practice. At this point we're really into the territory of individual tradeoffs. And FWIW, anyone would be hard pressed to go up against the author of that article in terms of real-world experience with this stuff. As for a lot of the members of his forum... well, that's another story.


An absolutely fantastic example of very well built, very capable rigs doing some "overlanding"

The JK-Experience looks like it was a truly epic trip, but it doesn't really qualify as "overlanding" by any generally-accepted definition of that term that I know of. I really don't mean to down-play it, but those were pretty well-worn trails that were all less than a half day's drive to a hotel. Absolutely stunning scenery and wheeling that I hope to experience some day.

EDIT: Forgot to get in my potshot on ham vs. CB... CB is cheap and easy to get in to, no question. Ham (or really 2m FM, and I would put race radios in this boat as well) is hands down better in every other regard. Full stop. One thing I've never understood is dumping $10K on axles and cheaping out on good comms... :bleh:

Vulpine
04-25-2012, 01:29 PM
The JK-Experience looks like it was a truly epic trip, but it doesn't really qualify as "overlanding" by any generally-accepted definition of that term that I know of. I really don't mean to down-play it, but those were pretty well-worn trails that were all less than a half day's drive to a hotel. Absolutely stunning scenery and wheeling that I hope to experience some day.

EDIT: Forgot to get in my potshot on ham vs. CB... CB is cheap and easy to get in to, no question. Ham (or really 2m FM, and I would put race radios in this boat as well) is hands down better in every other regard. Full stop. One thing I've never understood is dumping $10K on axles and cheaping out on good comms... :bleh:

If you visit the site that I linked earlier and go to History>Definitions he gives five distinct definitions of Overlanding of which trips like the JK-Experience falls directly within one of those definitions. Sure, for us in the US such trips can be considered "day trips", but that is under one of the definitions. Even according to the author's own definitions, an exploratory Overland trip can be doesn't necessarily mean going to some place never before visited. His #5 definition emphasizes the ultimate Overland which covers scientific and sociological researches, but each of the others pare down to exploration for individuals and even WayofLife enjoys seeing new places that can only be reached by a Jeep or similar vehicle.

By the way, your definition of a "big lift" and WayofLife's may differ considering some of the discussion that went on earlier. According to the author of that article, any lift over about 2" is too much because it supposedly weakens the load-bearing capability of the vehicle itself while any tire larger than about 33"--especially if they're wider than, say 235mm could cause rubbing in the fender wells and limit the turning radius of the vehicle. He also seems to either not know or ignore the capabilities of today's trail tires to run at 0psi on the trails with little to no damage to the tires themselves while emphasizing that every rig should have some form of tire inflation pump, acknowledging the need on occasion to reduce tire pressure for some of the more technical aspects of a trip. I, personally, don't consider 4" extreme when I see Jeeps and trucks riding as much as 12" of lift and still driving on the highways.

My plans for my own JK are a total of 3" of lift (75mm) and upgrading to 35" tires once this second set of 32"s wears down. Even these 32 inchers do very well if I can just avoid bottoming out on the rocks of a moderate (#5 trail rating) run. That 3" (1" body, 2" suspension) should carry me up to a #7 or #8 trail fairly well though I'm not sure it could handle the Rubicon (the only #9 trail) on these tires. Lockers might be a good idea, too, even though I'm running limited slip front and rear. If I break an axle, then I'll up the axles to 50/60 or so, but until then I'm ok with the 30/44s under her now.


Addendum: I thought the Rubicon was the only #9 trail... guess I was wrong. It's the only #10 trail?

mmccurdy
04-25-2012, 03:33 PM
If you visit the site that I linked earlier and go to History>Definitions he gives five distinct definitions of Overlanding of which trips like the JK-Experience falls directly within one of those definitions. Sure, for us in the US such trips can be considered "day trips", but that is under one of the definitions.

Yeah I thought about this one a little more and I think you're right -- by a fairly broad definition the Experience would fit, though I think even on that page it falls under the "Backcountry Adventure" heading vs. "Overland" or "Expedition." I don't think it even needs to be defined that crisply or narrowly. I guess my point was that the Experience doesn't typify "overland" style travel. It does have that point-to-point aspect which seems key (vs. multiple day trips). :idontknow:

wayoflife
04-25-2012, 03:41 PM
I think he fully understands their intent and purpose, and he is making an explicit choice not to run them for practical reasons.

but, based on what? if you were to tell me that this guy actually has years of experience running rigs that were significantly more modified and is now using the knowledge he's gained from that to base his so called pratical reasons, i might be more receptive to his opinions on the matter. however, it would appear that his explicit choices are not based on fact or experience but rather, imagined threats. granted, i don't know this guy from adam so, maybe i'm wrong here.


it's hard to argue with the logic that says if you don't need a big lift and MT tires to get where you want to go, there is no reason to run them. There are very few corners of this country let alone the world that really can't be reached on a very mildly built JK but can be reached on a Moby-like build, and that's been my point all along.

but, depending on the year, time of year, amount of rain fall or amount of snow, it's been my experience that even the easiest of trails can quickly degrade into near impassible boulder strewn chasms. for instance, getting up to someplace like hungry bills ranch is something a honda civic can do most years but, during the winter of 2004, a crazy rain year, the trail was almost impassible in our highly modified TJ. in 1997, goler wash, a trail that charles mason took a school bus up to his hideaway got completely washed out in a flash flood creating a huge dry fall that, until the park service came in to level it out, was extremely difficult to climb in all but more highly modified vehicles. while you may not need a bigger lift (i don't like "big" lifts - just big enough to clear the tires i am running) and MT tires to get you to where you want to go most of the time, isn't the whole idea of "overland" to be self-sufficient and prepared to take on whatever comes your way? sure, a lot can be done in a mildly built JK but, the amount of effort that is required to move that vehicle across the same terrain is often significant enough to cause unnecessary breaks. again, i would be the first to say that these breaks i speak of are ones that i personally have suffered and, much of why moby is what he is today is a result of me trying to find ways to mitigate them in the future.


Can Moby dominate on obstacles? Yes, without a doubt. But keep in mind that's not the goal of the "overland" sport. Will Moby be more reliable? Maybe. Will it be more comfortable getting there? Probably. Will it be less "safe"? Maybe, but by a margin so small that it probably doesn't matter in practice. At this point we're really into the territory of individual tradeoffs.

i've wheeled stock, mildly built, well built and highly built JK's and can tell you with out a doubt, as is, moby is more reliable today than it's ever been. it is way more comfortable getting there, way more stable and therefore, way more safe or, at least in my opinion. with the exception of high cost, i'm not sure where there tradeoff is.


And FWIW, anyone would be hard pressed to go up against the author of that article in terms of real-world experience with this stuff. As for a lot of the members of his forum... well, that's another story.

well, i'm all to eager to hear about his real-world experiences running highly built rigs. i would love to learn about all the pitfalls he's discovered running them for years and how those experiences have shown him the light.


The JK-Experience looks like it was a truly epic trip, but it doesn't really qualify as "overlanding" by any generally-accepted definition of that term that I know of. I really don't mean to down-play it, but those were pretty well-worn trails that were all less than a half day's drive to a hotel. Absolutely stunning scenery and wheeling that I hope to experience some day.

in all fairness, the hotel thing was something they did this year only and only as a saftey precaution due to the high altitudes that we were at the whole week. previous years really put you out in the middle of nowhere and required a lot more of camping.


EDIT: Forgot to get in my potshot on ham vs. CB... CB is cheap and easy to get in to, no question. Ham (or really 2m FM, and I would put race radios in this boat as well) is hands down better in every other regard. Full stop. One thing I've never understood is dumping $10K on axles and cheaping out on good comms... :bleh:

LOL!! i'm with you on this and now have a race radio too (way better than a CB) and would probably have a HAM already too if it weren't for the fact that someone in our group always has one and for the most part, i'd only really use it for safety purposes. but, until more people see the light, most are still running CB's and i would prefer to have the ability to communicate with the people in my group than some guy halfway around the world.

wayoflife
04-25-2012, 03:48 PM
According to the author of that article, any lift over about 2" is too much because it supposedly weakens the load-bearing capability of the vehicle itself while any tire larger than about 33"--especially if they're wider than, say 235mm could cause rubbing in the fender wells and limit the turning radius of the vehicle.

and this all seems just so crazy to me. loading up a stock JK with a roof rack, super heavy tent and a ton of gear will weaken the load-bearing capabilities of a stock vehicle and put an enormous strain on its drive train components. as far as rubbing of the fender wells go, he must be referring to vehicles other than a JK but even still, aftermarket wheels with proper back spacing will address that minor concern.


He also seems to either not know or ignore the capabilities of today's trail tires to run at 0psi on the trails with little to no damage to the tires themselves while emphasizing that every rig should have some form of tire inflation pump, acknowledging the need on occasion to reduce tire pressure for some of the more technical aspects of a trip. I, personally, don't consider 4" extreme when I see Jeeps and trucks riding as much as 12" of lift and still driving on the highways.

and, that's my point as well. what one can imagine is nice but, you can learn a lot more from real life expereince.


Addendum: I thought the Rubicon was the only #9 trail... guess I was wrong. It's the only #10 trail?

trail ratings are subjective to the people to rate them. the rubicon is NOT what i would consider a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10. more like a 6-7 at most and maybe a 10 if you were to take on specific obstacles like the soup bowl or the little sluice.

mmccurdy
04-25-2012, 04:35 PM
but, based on what? if you were to tell me that this guy actually has years of experience running rigs that were significantly more modified and is now using the knowledge he's gained from that to base his so called pratical reasons, i might be more receptive to his opinions on the matter. however, it would appear that his explicit choices are not based on fact or experience but rather, imagined threats. granted, i don't know this guy from adam so, maybe i'm wrong here.

The fact that he's been able to get to all the places he's been without running a big build is exactly the point I'm trying to make. There are very few places you really can't go with even a stock Rubicon and a winch.


i've wheeled stock, mildly built, well built and highly built JK's and can tell you with out a doubt, as is, moby is more reliable today than it's ever been. it is way more comfortable getting there, way more stable and therefore, way more safe or, at least in my opinion. with the exception of high cost, i'm not sure where there tradeoff is.

Sure, but your personal experience with Moby is based on wheeling it way harder than would be required for "overland" wheeling, so the fact that it's more reliable for you is not surprising, since you've built it up to serve that purpose. Cost is a huge factor in all this, of course, and probably even the most compelling one for the "if you don't need it, why run it?" argument.

Beyond that, you don't need tons of experience personally running big lifts and tires to see the theoretical down-sides -- it's mostly just physics. Bigger tires, heavier axles, and decorative bumpers means more mass that has to be stopped, turned, and hauled over any obstacles. I'm not sure I completely see the "bigger contact patch = bad" argument personally, but whatever. That said, I think in practice these down-sides can be mitigated almost completely. That's where the real-world experience does come in. Having D60-sized brakes, for example, seems like a good strategy for stopping the 40's attached to them. Likewise, people act like if you run a roof tent your rig will instantly flip over, tumble down a ravine, and you'll die a horrible death. I can tell you from real-world experience that's absolutely true. ;)

wayoflife
04-25-2012, 04:52 PM
The fact that he's been able to get to all the places he's been without running a big build is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

hmmm, i guess i need to take some time to see where all he's been.


There are very few places you really can't go with even a stock Rubicon and a winch.

maybe, but that would be more than i would prefer. and again, it doesn't take much to make even the easiest destinations, one of those few places.


Sure, but your personal experience with Moby is based on wheeling it way harder than would be required for "overland" wheeling, so the fact that it's more reliable for you is not surprising, since you've built it up to serve that purpose. Cost is a huge factor in all this, of course, and probably even the most compelling one for the "if you don't need it, why run it?" argument.

well, if this is all about cost, i definitely see that as a valid argument. what i find funny is that a lot of this thread getting started was because of a conversation i was having with some guys who were trying to justify the need to buy over priced control arm relocation brackets and dual rate springs claiming, that when it came to doing overland builds right, cost shouldn't be a factor. but, i know this isn't the case with you.


Beyond that, you don't need tons of experience personally running big lifts and tires to see the theoretical down-sides -- it's mostly just physics. Bigger tires, heavier axles, and decorative bumpers means more mass that has to be stopped, turned, and hauled over any obstacles.

actually, big heavy axles and big heavy tires provide great "unsprung" weight and are a huge benefit in lowering your COG and providing stability. of course, the bigger axles will also be able to take the strain of moving that extra weight and so much more.


Likewise, people act like if you run a roof tent your rig will instantly flip over, tumble down a ravine, and you'll die a horrible death. I can tell you from real-world experience that's absolutely true. ;)

:cheesy: you know i'm just razzin ya

piginajeep
04-25-2012, 05:46 PM
. Likewise, people act like if you run a roof tent your rig will instantly flip over, tumble down a ravine, and you'll die a horrible death. I can tell you from real-world experience that's absolutely true. ;)

I think its more dangerous when your drinking and trying to get into the roof top tent :standing wave:

mmccurdy
04-25-2012, 05:55 PM
I think its more dangerous when your drinking and trying to get into the roof top tent :standing wave:

Yep, it's a problem. That's why I recommend you always travel with a buddy or two who can physically hoist you up there if needed.

wayoflife
04-25-2012, 06:07 PM
I think its more dangerous when your drinking and trying to get into the roof top tent :standing wave:

:cheesy::drunkbuds::clap2:

piginajeep
04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
Yep, it's a problem. That's why I recommend you always travel with a buddy or two who can physically hoist you up there if needed.

:cheesy::clap2::standing wave:

wayoflife
04-25-2012, 07:56 PM
So, I've asked this before and I feel like it needs to be asked again, even if money is an issue, why wouldn't you want to make it a priority to install better components that have proven themselves to be superior to OEM. I mean, the factory front axle housing whether it be a Dana 30 or 44 really isn't that great. The end forgings are weak and prone to bend, the tubes are thin and there have clearly been examples of where they've broken even on stock setups, the ball joints are un-greasable and use plastic components that tend to fail prematurely and the shafts have yokes that only use C-clips. To me, investing in something like a Dynatrac Pro Rock 44 with chromoly shafts and Pro Steer ball joints is a worthy investment and one that will help ensure you will not suffer needless breakdowns on the trail.

As far as drive shafts go, the ones that come from the factory work well enough but, if you lift your Jeep at all, the front shaft will come into contact with your automatic transmission sump pan, tear off the slip shaft boot and will eventually cause a transmission leak. Of cousre, the greater angle that it gets placed in puts the CV boot in a constant state of pinch and, over time causes it to fail and that ultimately leads to the failure of the joint itself. Along those lines, Rzeppa joints aren't exactly something you can find at your local Napa autoparts store or even something that most local drive line shops can work on. 1310 u-joints can be found just about anywhere, for cheap and a standard u-joint style drive shaft is definitely something that you can have worked on anywhere. Of course, for those who will actually take the time to regear, all this is to say nothing about things like how really really small a 5.13 pinion is on a Dana 30 or 5.38 is on a Dana 44.

Even if you were to run just 33" or 35", for all the weight "overland" types likes to carry, I just don't understand why drivetrain upgrades never even make it onto the list of things you should invest in. Sure, things like limb risers and a Snow Peak kitchen set are nice and all but, to me, they would fall more under the category of "if you don't need it, why get it". But, that's just me.

GCM 2
04-25-2012, 07:59 PM
Re-reading thru this thread, I have now lost all interest in offroading.

wayoflife
04-25-2012, 08:04 PM
Re-reading thru this thread, I have now lost all interest in offroading.

:cheesy:.....

MTG
04-25-2012, 08:13 PM
Re-reading thru this thread, I have now lost all interest in offroading.

That's only because you now want a snorkel AND a roof rack so you can begin to overland. :cheesy:

mmccurdy
04-25-2012, 08:30 PM
Even if you were to run just 33" or 35", for all the weight "overland" types likes to carry, I just don't understand why drivetrain upgrades never even make it onto the list of things you should invest in. Sure, things like limb risers and a Snow Peak kitchen set are nice and all but, to me, they would fall more under the category of "if you don't need it, why get it". But, that's just me.

I decided I'm going to keep my D30 up front as an ironic statement, mostly because I think it's cute! :brows:


Re-reading thru this thread, I have now lost all interest in offroading.

Good, because no one should be "offroading" anymore. You must select one of the five pillars of overlanding in which to participate.

GCM 2
04-25-2012, 08:32 PM
That's only because you now want a snorkel AND a roof rack so you can begin to overland. :cheesy:

Mike,
I have had two vehicles with roof racks and one with a snorkel. A 1963 VW beetle (roof rack) and 2007 LR3 (rack and snorkel, reference post #21 from page 1 of this thread). In fact your Honor, the defendent submits these three pieces of evidence as to being guilty of ''roof racking and snorkelling" a vehicle with only the trendiest of intentions.

1841

1842

1843

MTG
04-25-2012, 08:43 PM
Mike,
I have had two vehicles with roof racks and one with a snorkel. A 1963 VW beetle (roof rack) and 2007 LR3 (rack and snorkel, reference post #21 from page 1 of this thread). In fact your Honor, the defendent submits these three pieces of evidence as to being guilty of ''roof racking and snorkelling" a vehicle with only the trendiest of intentions.



I had a roof rack on a 1987 Audi 4000cs Quattro (had locking differentials), whilst at the same time owning a snorkel (and mask) for well...snorkeling. Not sure what that makes me, but maybe I can get some kahki pants and a matching shirt with lots of pockets and do something with that experience?

highoctane
04-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Re-reading thru this thread, I have now lost all interest in offroading.

I'm surprised you made the 1k mile JK Experience, overland, without a roof rack and snorkel.

piginajeep
04-25-2012, 10:50 PM
Not sure what that makes me,

:cheesy:

nevermind :D

wayoflife
04-26-2012, 02:58 PM
I decided I'm going to keep my D30 up front as an ironic statement, mostly because I think it's cute! :brows:



Good, because no one should be "offroading" anymore. You must select one of the five pillars of overlanding in which to participate.

:cheesy: I love it :thumb:

Vulpine
04-26-2012, 04:25 PM
Heh, heh, heh. Now I'm really enjoying this thread. Sarcasm abounds and everybody knows it.

Hey, Wayoflife, know of any decent mod shops in the DelMarVa region? Methinks it's time to get that lift.

Vulpine
04-26-2012, 04:31 PM
As far as drive shafts go, the ones that come from the factory work well enough but, if you lift your Jeep at all, the front shaft will come into contact with your automatic transmission sump pan, tear off the slip shaft boot and will eventually cause a transmission leak. Of cousre, the greater angle that it gets placed in puts the CV boot in a constant state of pinch and, over time causes it to fail and that ultimately leads to the failure of the joint itself. Along those lines, Rzeppa joints aren't exactly something you can find at your local Napa autoparts store or even something that most local drive line shops can work on. 1310 u-joints can be found just about anywhere, for cheap and a standard u-joint style drive shaft is definitely something that you can have worked on anywhere. Of course, for those who will actually take the time to regear, all this is to say nothing about things like how really really small a 5.13 pinion is on a Dana 30 or 5.38 is on a Dana 44.

A note here based on reading I've done elsewhere:

Your comment about the auto transmission appears to be extremely valid in some ways, though I'm not aware of the particulars in these specific cases. For some reason, Automatic transmission Wranglers are having a fluid leak issue that is resulting in fires that tend to take out the entire rig. What I don't know is if these Wranglers are lifted at all or if there's a different cause altogether, but the issue so far is limited only to the AT-equipped Wranglers.

Now, based on that would a total 3" lift (1" body, 2" suspension) cause similar issues on a stick?

Sharkey
04-26-2012, 04:43 PM
^^^has nothing to do with a lift. I'm pretty sure it has to do with AT fluid "boiling over" and coming in contact with the motor or exhaust. Pre-2012's owners can do a lot to prevent this by installing a tranny fluid cooler (first mod I did, cost like $60), and by actually paying attention to how much fluid they have. I could be wrong, but I think the 2012's come with an external cooler mounted in front of the radiator.

MTG
04-26-2012, 05:04 PM
Hey, Wayoflife, know of any decent mod shops in the DelMarVa region? Methinks it's time to get that lift.

Do it yourself. This way you'll have a greater understanding of your rig and will know how to fix it if it breaks while wheeling it or overlanding as the case may be.

wayoflife
04-26-2012, 06:06 PM
^^^has nothing to do with a lift. I'm pretty sure it has to do with AT fluid "boiling over" and coming in contact with the motor or exhaust. Pre-2012's owners can do a lot to prevent this by installing a tranny fluid cooler (first mod I did, cost like $60), and by actually paying attention to how much fluid they have. I could be wrong, but I think the 2012's come with an external cooler mounted in front of the radiator.

What Sharkey said. The fires you have heard about have nothing to do with a JK being lifted. In fact, several of the fires occured on stock JK's. While no official cause or reason has been attributed to the fires, from what I have personally seen, it is most likely being caused by the transmission boiling over and pumping ATF onto the cats and/or exhaust cross over as mentioned.


Do it yourself. This way you'll have a greater understanding of your rig and will know how to fix it if it breaks while wheeling it or overlanding as the case may be.

I agree. For how small of a lift you are planning on installing, doing it yourself is not only cheaper, it will give you a chance to learn more about your JK.

Vulpine
04-26-2012, 07:44 PM
^^^has nothing to do with a lift. I'm pretty sure it has to do with AT fluid "boiling over" and coming in contact with the motor or exhaust. Pre-2012's owners can do a lot to prevent this by installing a tranny fluid cooler (first mod I did, cost like $60), and by actually paying attention to how much fluid they have. I could be wrong, but I think the 2012's come with an external cooler mounted in front of the radiator.

Since I have a stick, I wouldn't know. But WayofLife did point out that any lift at all could cause a transmission fluid leak and if that fluid is thrown around by the drive shaft, it's not hard to envision some of it hitting hot exhaust pipes which is where those reports I have read seem to imply the fire as starting--under the body rather than in the engine compartment.

I'm not saying you're wrong--I simply don't know--I'm only saying WaL's description also sounds valid.

Vulpine
04-26-2012, 07:47 PM
I agree. For how small of a lift you are planning on installing, doing it yourself is not only cheaper, it will give you a chance to learn more about your JK.

Would love to, but HOA where I live won't let me do it in my driveway/parking slip and I don't have access to a garage with (or without) lift to work under her myself. I'm stuck with having to either pay for the work or getting lucky and finding another Jeeper that's willing to teach me in my neck of the "piney woods."

Sharkey
04-26-2012, 08:40 PM
But WayofLife did point out that any lift at all could cause a transmission fluid leak and if that fluid is thrown around by the drive shaft, it's not hard to envision some of it hitting hot exhaust pipes which is where those reports I have read seem to imply the fire as starting--under the body rather than in the engine compartment.


When did he say that? I'm not sure why or how a lift could cause the transmission to leak. Are you sure you aren't confusing WOL's statements about driveshaft boots tearing and spitting grease with the transmission leaking? I'm not sure what reports you have read, but in every picture I have seen of a burned JK, the fire started in the engine bay or perhaps just below the firewall (in which case I would postulate that the fluid boil over travelled down the AT breather line from the engine bay and then dripped onto the exhaust.)

MTG
04-26-2012, 09:04 PM
When did he say that? I'm not sure why or how a lift could cause the transmission to leak. Are you sure you aren't confusing WOL's statements about driveshaft boots tearing and spitting grease with the transmission leaking? I'm not sure what reports you have read, but in every picture I have seen of a burned JK, the fire started in the engine bay or perhaps just below the firewall (in which case I would postulate that the fluid boil over travelled down the AT breather line from the engine bay and then dripped onto the exhaust.)

The real question is not whether a lift can cause it to leak, but rather whether a roof rack or snorkel would prevent it from doing so? :cheesy:

Sharkey
04-26-2012, 09:14 PM
The real question is not whether a lift can cause it to leak, but rather whether a roof rack or snorkel would prevent it from doing so? :cheesy:

Lol. Actually, since some people run their breather hoses to the airbox when they install a snorkel, I guess it's theoretically possible that they couldn't get a boil over onto the engine or exhaust. Dammit! Now the discussion must end because we have conclusive proof that snorkels make an automatic JK safer. :cheesy: All is not lost though, I guess we can still argue about standard transmissions.

wayoflife
04-27-2012, 05:46 AM
When did he say that? I'm not sure why or how a lift could cause the transmission to leak. Are you sure you aren't confusing WOL's statements about driveshaft boots tearing and spitting grease with the transmission leaking? I'm not sure what reports you have read, but in every picture I have seen of a burned JK, the fire started in the engine bay or perhaps just below the firewall (in which case I would postulate that the fluid boil over travelled down the AT breather line from the engine bay and then dripped onto the exhaust.)

yeah, i don't ever recall saying anything about lifts causing tranny leaks and or fires :thinking: :idontknow:


The real question is not whether a lift can cause it to leak, but rather whether a roof rack or snorkel would prevent it from doing so? :cheesy:

:cheesy:


Lol. Actually, since some people run their breather hoses to the airbox when they install a snorkel, I guess it's theoretically possible that they couldn't get a boil over onto the engine or exhaust. Dammit! Now the discussion must end because we have conclusive proof that snorkels make an automatic JK safer. :cheesy: All is not lost though, I guess we can still argue about standard transmissions.

oh man, now you've done it and just when i thought this thread was starting to die down :crazyeyes:

Vulpine
04-27-2012, 12:40 PM
yeah, i don't ever recall saying anything about lifts causing tranny leaks and or fires :thinking: :idontknow:




Here's the post with the quote. Middle paragraph, your own words: http://wayalife.com/showthread.php?684-Roof-Rack-Snorkel-Overland&p=6854&viewfull=1#post6854

The point was that causing a leak in that manner could cause a fire, not would. I didn't say either of you were wrong, only that you both put forward good descriptions of how it could happen--enough to make one want to ensure they don't make those mistakes.

I do have to wonder how they're getting transmission fluid boilovers if they're using stock JKs and no trailer attached--unless for whatever reason they're overfilling them? Then again, I thought new transmissions were factory sealed now.

MTG
04-27-2012, 01:08 PM
Here's the post with the quote. Middle paragraph, your own words: http://wayalife.com/showthread.php?684-Roof-Rack-Snorkel-Overland&p=6854&viewfull=1#post6854

The point was that causing a leak in that manner could cause a fire, not would. I didn't say either of you were wrong, only that you both put forward good descriptions of how it could happen--enough to make one want to ensure they don't make those mistakes.



Different issues.

wayoflife
04-27-2012, 01:41 PM
what MTG said, totally different issue. the lift itself doesn't cause a leak, your factory drive shaft coming into contact with the sump pan will. installing an aftermarket drive shaft will eliminate this problem. also, a sump pan leak WILL NOT cause a fire and i never suggested that it could or would. at most, a leak there will reduce the amount of fluid you have and that will effect your transmission's ability to work properly and, you may have a stain on your driveway to boot. atf pumping out of the dip stick/fill tube will throw it all over extremely hot stuff under your jeep's hood and that can cause a fire.

Vulpine
04-27-2012, 03:21 PM
what MTG said, totally different issue. the lift itself doesn't cause a leak, your factory drive shaft coming into contact with the sump pan will. installing an aftermarket drive shaft will eliminate this problem. also, a sump pan leak WILL NOT cause a fire and i never suggested that it could or would. at most, a leak there will reduce the amount of fluid you have and that will effect your transmission's ability to work properly and, you may have a stain on your driveway to boot. atf pumping out of the dip stick/fill tube will throw it all over extremely hot stuff under your jeep's hood and that can cause a fire.

Forgive me; I seem to have a problem with comment clarity.

In reading your description, I thought I remembered you mentioning the possibility of a transmission fluid leak hitting the drive shaft and being spun off onto hot exhaust in your description. From what I've read of the JK fires, every one of them started under the body at the transmission itself, not under the hood. This would imply that your description is a logical cause, if not the real cause. Obviously, if the drive shaft wears through the sump housing it means you've got friction for heat as well as the potential for sparks--either of which could cause the transmission fluid to ignite. This is why I said I would want to avoid the potential at any cost. I'm not trying to say either one of you is right or wrong; I'm just saying I want to play it safe. To be honest, I don't think even the HTSB knows the real cause of the fires and we are only speculating based on what few facts we know about the situation. The simple fact that both you and MTG have a lot more experience in this area than I do means that I will defer to your more educated opinions.

I still want to find a good shop and a good group like you guys up my way. I've got a lot to learn and a short time to learn it (paraphrasing the lyrics from 'Eastbound and Down' from Smokey and the Bandit.)

Vulpine
04-27-2012, 03:41 PM
Anybody ever think of trying to write a story based on that song? With some of you having wheel-on experience on that road (pass) you could probably make it pure comedy (like CW McCall) or a fear-fest as the inexperienced driver takes his rented Jeep (and family) across the pass.

MTG
04-27-2012, 03:42 PM
Forgive me; I seem to have a problem with comment clarity.
With the name Vulpine, one has to wonder if it is intentional...or do you just like foxes? :thinking: :cheesy:


The simple fact that both you and MTG have a lot more experience in this area than I do means that I will defer to your more educated opinions.

MTG experience in this area = 0


I still want to find a good shop and a good group like you guys up my way. I've got a lot to learn and a short time to learn it (paraphrasing the lyrics from 'Eastbound and Down' from Smokey and the Bandit.)

I do not know whether you are a member at JK-forum but I'd try the East Coast staging area and ask some of the forum members for recommendations:
http://www.jk-forum.com/east-coast-51/

Or even more specific: Link (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=baltimore+md+jeep+club)

Vulpine
04-27-2012, 03:59 PM
With the name Vulpine, one has to wonder if it is intentional...or do you just like foxes? :thinking: :cheesy:
Oh, I am a fox. Believe me. North American Red with a hint of German. Gregarious and crafty; love to stir up conversations and try to learn from them.




MTG experience in this area = 0 MTG been on this board longer than I have, ergo, more experienced than me.




I do not know whether you are a member at JK-forum but I'd try the East Coast staging area and ask some of the forum members for recommendations:
http://www.jk-forum.com/east-coast-51/

Or even more specific: Link (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=baltimore+md+jeep+club)

Yes, a member, but their forums are dull compared to this one. Still, I should dig a little more.

StrizzyChris
05-23-2012, 11:31 PM
This thread has died down(and thank the dear lord) but I saw this as I was walking into work a couple days ago and cracked up...I think he needs a couple more spares on his roof rack! At least Ill give him credit for not being a poser in a H2 or worse an H3 :icon_crazy:

2346

wayoflife
05-23-2012, 11:36 PM
This thread has died down(and thank the dear lord) but I saw this as I was walking into work a couple days ago and cracked up...I think he needs a couple more spares on his roof rack! At least Ill give him credit for not being a poser in a H2 or worse an H3 :icon_crazy:

2346

:cheesy: what's with the straps on the mud flaps :crazyeyes:

wayoflife
05-23-2012, 11:38 PM
speaking of overland - i just had to post up this pic we took over the weekend. a hotel just for overlanders...

http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=280970

:D

StrizzyChris
05-23-2012, 11:49 PM
speaking of overland - i just had to post up this pic we took over the weekend. a hotel just for overlanders... :D

as you can see in your post and this pic, there are no roof racks on these overlanders. I would have liked to see better water fording capabilities with 8 snorkles though!
http://www.thehistorybluff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/covered-wagons.jpg

GCM 2
05-24-2012, 12:26 AM
Yes! It's back again, the Overlanding thread.......prepare for responses, it may get bumpy.

wayoflife
05-24-2012, 03:17 AM
:shock: seat belts are buckled and tray table is in the upright position :D

Vulpine
05-24-2012, 03:56 PM
This thread has died down(and thank the dear lord) but I saw this as I was walking into work a couple days ago and cracked up...I think he needs a couple more spares on his roof rack! At least Ill give him credit for not being a poser in a H2 or worse an H3 :icon_crazy:

2346

Ya just gotta chuckle with that one. As for the straps on the mudflaps? I think they're to keep the mudflaps from getting dragged into the tires under certain circumstances. I've seen some mudflaps torn to shreds because they somehow got pulled forward and caught the tires while going down the highway. Take a look at some 18-wheeler mudflaps out there. The look like they spent a lot of time on top of the tire, rather than behind it.

StrizzyChris
05-24-2012, 04:27 PM
I think they're to keep the mudflaps from getting dragged into the tires under certain circumstances.

I.E. 300lbs of added rear weight causing them to sag and drag in the rear :cheesy:

Prime8
05-24-2012, 06:04 PM
I.E. 300lbs of added rear weight causing them to sag and drag in the rear :cheesy:

You're just jealous cause you can't fit two full size spares side-by-side on the back of your rig! But you CAN fit in one parking space, so at least you have that going for you...

wayoflife
05-29-2012, 04:32 PM
No joke, the four guys on the left were a group of "overland" experts that we met over the weekend and, this is about how the one way converstation went....

2423

:cheesy:

GCM 2
05-29-2012, 04:34 PM
No joke, this was a group of "overland" experts that we met over the weekend and about how the one way converstation went....:cheesy:

that is classic! :)

wayoflife
05-29-2012, 04:43 PM
that is classic! :)

Seriously, it was awesome - you would have loved it. I could barely keep a straight face. :cheesy:

MTG
05-29-2012, 04:49 PM
Wait, so you mean the notes I was taking are worthless? :thinking:

:cheesy:

wayoflife
05-29-2012, 04:51 PM
Wait, so you mean the notes I was taking are worthless? :thinking:

:cheesy:

not at all - they are great to look back on for those times when you need a good laugh :D

seriously, thanks for taking this pic and for letting me use it :thumb:

Hightower
05-29-2012, 05:46 PM
No joke, the four guys on the left were a group of "overland" experts that we met over the weekend and, this is about how the one way converstation went....



LOL.......................................:cheesy:

piginajeep
05-29-2012, 05:57 PM
Did you see on the facebook page, Some assumed Mike was a dirty hippy overlander :cheesy:

wayoflife
05-29-2012, 05:59 PM
No joke, the four guys on the left were a group of "overland" experts that we met over the weekend and, this is about how the one way converstation went....



LOL.......................................:cheesy:

you know, the said thing is that doug actually tried to disagree with these guys and explain what he's been able to do with his jeep. it was too funny. :cheesy:

JKRay
05-29-2012, 06:23 PM
you know, the said thing is that doug actually tried to disagree with these guys and explain what he's been able to do with his jeep. it was too funny. :cheesy:

lol I would of loved to see that!!

Sharkey
05-29-2012, 06:29 PM
That is awesome!

kaptkrappy
05-29-2012, 06:34 PM
Update;

24292430

.

wayoflife
05-29-2012, 06:40 PM
Update;

24292430

.

:cheesy: OMG!! the grizwalds were way ahead of their time

MTG
05-30-2012, 02:31 AM
Update;

24292430

.

Nice! I almost missed the photoshopping.

ncbmx64
05-30-2012, 05:04 PM
I didnt get a chance to read the whole thread but I did read about 16 pages of it. To me what makes a "Overland" or "Rock Crawler" or whatever else you want to call your rig depends on what the owner wants to call it. Im not sure what other than someone calling it a "Overland" makes it one. I agee with WOL I think his rig (and the other guys who said the same thing) can pretty much do whatever he wants it to do. Its a pretty built up rig and there is probably not much he can't do with it. I hope to someday have a rig as capable of what Moby and Rubicat can do. I like WOL outlook on wheeling (or at least what I get out of his posts in this thread as well as many others), wheel it and upgrade what you need to fit your needs, wheel it some more and upgrade what breaks to something stronger that can handle more punishment.

mmccurdy
05-31-2012, 08:46 AM
Update;

http://wayalife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2429&d=1338316442



... I do have a soft spot for wagons. It's probably the beard.

MTG
05-31-2012, 01:16 PM
... I do have a soft spot for wagons. It's probably the beard.

I better grow a beard then. :)

codename607
06-01-2012, 10:09 PM
I'm a simple guy so these are my definitions of Overland and Rock Krawler.

Overland is more like a RV or Camper. A vehicle that you can actually live out of. One that has great gas milage and is reliable.

Rock Krawler would be a rock krawler.

Overland vehicles can't be rock krawlers because they need to have good gas milage and have the ability to support life (refrigerator, lots of storage, etc). And on the other hand rock krawlers need to have big tires and no storage at all.

First pic is a overland vehicle. Second is a rock krawler.
2486 2487

piginajeep
06-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Yes! It's back again, the Overlanding thread.......prepare for responses, it may get bumpy.

:cheesy:...............

Chairokey
06-01-2012, 11:40 PM
No joke, the four guys on the left were a group of "overland" experts that we met over the weekend and, this is about how the one way converstation went....

<img src="http://wayalife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2423"/>

:cheesy:

OMG HAHAHA!!! The guy you quoted saying "god save me" (wish I knew names) that is the PERFECT quote for his facial expression lmao. He looks like he's ready to scream

DA RUNT
06-01-2012, 11:45 PM
That's funny, Mary showed it to me on facebook. They asked which one owned the rover, her respone was the guy with clean fingernails and soft hands :cheesy:

GCM 2
06-02-2012, 02:21 AM
I'm a simple guy so these are my definitions of Overland and Rock Krawler.

Overland is more like a RV or Camper. A vehicle that you can actually live out of. One that has great gas milage and is reliable.

.....and here is another example of an overlanding vehicle ;)

codename607
06-02-2012, 03:19 AM
.....and here is another example of an overlanding vehicle ;)

No this is not overland:thinking:...this is just bad ass:rock:. Maybe if you put the stock wheels back on it would be considered one...lol:cheesy:

Hightower
06-02-2012, 04:35 AM
.....and here is another example of an overlanding vehicle ;)

This rig is neither overland or crawler its a firicken work of art:twocents::twocents::rock:

Sharkey
06-02-2012, 05:19 AM
I don't get the fixed sleeping quarters on or in the Jeep. Being prepared does not include being fixed to a particular location. I'll take my Mountain Hardware 4 season tent over ANY rooftop tent on the market. It is lighter, more wearherproof, and MOBILE.

highoctane
06-02-2012, 09:06 AM
While I don't get the overland extreme mods, I do like the AEV rooftop tent that was part of the hardtop, and popped up, with the hinges at the front of the top, and a whole cut in the very back if the hardtop to climb up in. I dong use my factory hardtop, and it'd make a great tent.
Not a fan of the huge rooftop tents that mount on a roof rack.

Indefatigable
06-02-2012, 01:26 PM
I don't get the fixed sleeping quarters on or in the Jeep. .

Poisonous snakes, scorpions, and spiders.

The origin of these roof top tents is Africa and Australia. Lots of those critters there. Being on top of the vehicle keeps their incursions to a minimum.

One could call it a safety feature.

Though, if you have to get out in the middle of the night in a hurry.... one could also call it a safety hazard....

wayoflife
06-02-2012, 02:16 PM
Overland vehicles can't be rock krawlers because they need to have good gas milage and have the ability to support life (refrigerator, lots of storage, etc). And on the other hand rock krawlers need to have big tires and no storage at all.

well, we may not have the gas milage but, we do have really big tires and carry a refrigerator and lots of gear strategically stored inside our big white JK and all to help support life. :crazyeyes:


OMG HAHAHA!!! The guy you quoted saying "god save me" (wish I knew names) that is the PERFECT quote for his facial expression lmao. He looks like he's ready to scream

the real funny thing is that guy is mmccurdy here on this forum. he's the one who's been, to a degree, defending the idea of "overlanding" but listening to these guys near about killed him :D


That's funny, Mary showed it to me on facebook. They asked which one owned the rover, her respone was the guy with clean fingernails and soft hands :cheesy:

saw that response - classic!! :clap2:

wayoflife
06-02-2012, 02:17 PM
.....and here is another example of an overlanding vehicle ;)


No this is not overland:thinking:...this is just bad ass:rock:. Maybe if you put the stock wheels back on it would be considered one...lol:cheesy:


This rig is neither overland or crawler its a firicken work of art:twocents::twocents::rock:

sorry guys - there was no snorkel on that rig so it can't be a "true" overland vehicle - just a wannabe :cheesy:

wayoflife
06-02-2012, 02:28 PM
I don't get the fixed sleeping quarters on or in the Jeep. Being prepared does not include being fixed to a particular location. I'll take my Mountain Hardware 4 season tent over ANY rooftop tent on the market. It is lighter, more wearherproof, and MOBILE.

yeah, i'm totally with you on this one. with today's technology, you can get really nice tents that are very compact and lightweight and easy to pack in your jeep. :yup:


While I don't get the overland extreme mods, I do like the AEV rooftop tent that was part of the hardtop, and popped up, with the hinges at the front of the top, and a whole cut in the very back if the hardtop to climb up in. I dong use my factory hardtop, and it'd make a great tent.
Not a fan of the huge rooftop tents that mount on a roof rack.

not that it can't be done but, i've owned and wheeled a jeep with a roof rack loaded up and can tell you that even the easiest of trails become a lot more difficult. the added weight high up top throws off your COG, will get caught up in low hanging branches and even get caught up on the side of trees when passing them on slightly off camber terrain. while an integrated rooftop tent like what aev put out at sema a few years back would be better, i would imagine that the hardware to make it work would be just as heavy if not more so and would still not be something i would want especially being that we have other options available to us.


Poisonous snakes, scorpions, and spiders.

The origin of these roof top tents is Africa and Australia. Lots of those critters there. Being on top of the vehicle keeps their incursions to a minimum.

One could call it a safety feature.

Though, if you have to get out in the middle of the night in a hurry.... one could also call it a safety hazard....

well, to bring this back full circle, i did specifically state for the purposes of this thread, "here in america". i should also note that we do have poisonous snakes, scopions and spiders (depending on where you're at) and a good tent that is zipped up will do a pretty good job of keeping them out. as mentioned, if you have to get out in the middle of the night, you'd still have to deal with these critters only, in a traditional tent, there wouldn't be a safety hazard to deal with. :crazyeyes:

Prime8
06-02-2012, 03:33 PM
I'm a simple guy so these are my definitions of Overland and Rock Krawler.

Overland is more like a RV or Camper. A vehicle that you can actually live out of. One that has great gas milage and is reliable.

Rock Krawler would be a rock krawler.

Overland vehicles can't be rock krawlers because they need to have good gas milage and have the ability to support life (refrigerator, lots of storage, etc). And on the other hand rock krawlers need to have big tires and no storage at all.

First pic is a overland vehicle. Second is a rock krawler.
<img src="http://wayalife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2486"/> <img src="http://wayalife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2487"/>

You do realize the term is "rock Crawler", right? Haha, the brand Rock Krawler has wormed their way into your brain, making you inadvertently name drop them in threads! Haha. Free advertising!

GCM 2
06-02-2012, 04:23 PM
A message from the Offroad Gnome "follow my fingers to the roof rack tent sleeping area" ;)

Prime8
06-02-2012, 05:59 PM
A message from the Offroad Gnome "follow my fingers to the roof rack tent sleeping area" ;)

To those of you who have never met him, Greg is a big teletubbies fan and often wears his costume out and about...

GCM 2
06-02-2012, 06:48 PM
To those of you who have never met him, Greg is a big teletubbies fan and often wears his costume out and about...

Dang it, the secrets out! Thanks Prime ;)

Hightower
06-03-2012, 01:38 AM
Dang it, the secrets out! Thanks Prime ;)


To those of you who have never met him, Greg is a big teletubbies fan and often wears his costume out and about...

Nice.:yup: Greg can you get that out fit in xxl?:cheesy::cheesy:

bdmckenna
06-03-2012, 02:51 AM
Shit. Then what the hell do you call my rig? And it does both!

2530

Note the ARB cooler for food and drinks (sorry... no Honey on this trip)

2531

GCM 2
06-03-2012, 04:13 AM
Shit. Then what the hell do you call my rig? And it does both!

Awesome pics! And like any well built vehicle, it should be able to do both, just like yours :rock:

Sharkey
06-03-2012, 04:29 AM
Poisonous snakes, scorpions, and spiders.

All of which I have camped with in the Western United States and I have yet to have a critter figure out how to unzip my tent.

MTG
06-03-2012, 04:41 AM
All of which I have camped with in the Western United States and I have yet to have a critter figure out how to unzip my tent.

What about the chupacabra?

Sharkey
06-03-2012, 05:02 AM
What about the chupacabra?

They can climb a vehicle so you are screwed either way.

Chairokey
06-03-2012, 02:34 PM
They can climb a vehicle so you are screwed either way.

Truth. Not to mention they can use door knobs, so short of a house that floats, we don't stand a chance... I do believe Sharkey single handedly proved the worthlessness of the roof rack tent!

wayoflife
06-03-2012, 02:45 PM
Truth. Not to mention they can use door knobs, so short of a house that floats, we don't stand a chance... I do believe Sharkey single handedly proved the worthlessness of the roof rack tent!

i pretty sure chupacabra can swim - just sayin :idontknow: :D

Chairokey
06-03-2012, 04:27 PM
i pretty sure chupacabra can swim - just sayin :idontknow: :D

Oh but Eddie, I didn't mean in the water. I meant levitation. So tell me can the chupacabra fly?? Rofl

Indefatigable
06-03-2012, 04:31 PM
All of which I have camped with in the Western United States and I have yet to have a critter figure out how to unzip my tent.

Tents have come a long way.

Use a tent from the 60s, then one from the 70s, then one from the 80s. And so forth.

I have.

Tents have gotten so much better than how they used to be. They zip up, seal up, and tight!

StrizzyChris
06-04-2012, 02:17 AM
Tents have gotten so much better than how they used to be. They zip up, seal up, and tight!

I agree! Mine has a full on bathroom in it. It doubles as a "chimp home security system". Any unwanted critters get too close, itll throw my dung at them!

MTG
06-04-2012, 02:37 AM
I agree! Mine has a full on bathroom in it. It doubles as a "chimp home security system". Any unwanted critters get too close, itll throw my dung at them!

Wow.

.....

wayoflife
06-14-2012, 03:09 PM
Did you see on the facebook page, Some assumed Mike was a dirty hippy overlander :cheesy:

LOL!! speaking of hippy, mel just posted up a funny link on FB...


Since the 1960s overlanding has been a popular means of travel between destinations across Africa, Europe, Asia (particularly India), the Americas and Australia. The "Hippie Trail" of the 60s and 70s saw thousands of young westerners travelling through the Middle East to India and Nepal.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Overland

:D

kaptkrappy
06-14-2012, 03:50 PM
LOL!! speaking of hippys, mel...

:D

3049
3048
You sure that's not Mel back in the day ? :thinking:

piginajeep
06-14-2012, 04:00 PM
Speaking of hippies, here is the true overland vehicle

NHAkita
06-18-2012, 10:31 PM
I ran across this baby today on our company home page.


3130

ichthus
06-18-2012, 11:08 PM
That's pretty sweet

StrizzyChris
06-20-2012, 10:41 AM
3159

a snorkle is mandatory...but the fenders are just awesome!

kaptkrappy
06-20-2012, 11:11 AM
WOW ! That looks like there's a ten ton dump truck chassis under there.

They should have used the body from the wagon my mother drove in the '70's, at least it was a "woody".
Much better styling thatn plan white.

.

wayoflife
06-20-2012, 02:51 PM
3159

a snorkle is mandatory...but the fenders are just awesome!

:cheesy: omg, now that's a wagon!! too funny

Drumr90
06-20-2012, 05:12 PM
Wow this thread is still goin.

Sharkey
06-21-2012, 11:56 PM
Perhaps I can end this debate once and for all...but first, some set up. While traveling back from a hearing in Sacramento today I did as I oft do while solo driving; I pondered the distinction between overland vehicles, rock crawlers, and mall crawlers.

Then, as if the challenge came from the almighty Zeus himself, the test was put before me. I was faced with the biggest foe of them all: the "Overland Trail". Could this be it? Would all of my questions be answered? Honestly, I almost piddled in my suit. My first instinct was to swerve in the other direction to save life, limb, and my beloved Jeep. I reached deep inside though and found something strong...strong enough to accept the challenge I had been given. My muscles seemed to swell with adrenaline as I turned onto Exit 190. It was then that I remembered I had no snorkel, no roof rack, no fancy pants with zip out lower legs. Oh my god, what was I doing? It was too late though...I had committed my Jeep and my soul to the challenge.

After what can only be described as grueling travel across 31,680 inches of hot, desolate, cracked, two-year old asphalt...my trusty Jeep and I made it to the Holy Grail. We reached the Overland Trail. We did so without fanfare, without accolades, and without the need of a wench (although I'm certain I could have found a few in Truckee).

As I basked in my own greatness I could not help but notice the absence of anyone else. That's the answer, right? Overlanding simply means going places. It doesn't really matter so much how you get there, or whether you even reach your destination. What matters is the journey. I suspect we each drive Jeeps to take that journey. I guess that makes us all overlanders.

DManuel
06-22-2012, 01:11 AM
Perhaps I can end this debate once and for all...but first, some set up. While traveling back from a hearing in Sacramento today I did as I oft do while solo driving; I pondered the distinction between overland vehicles, rock crawlers, and mall crawlers.

Then, as if the challenge came from the almighty Zeus himself, the test was put before me. I was faced with the biggest foe of them all: the "Overland Trail". Could this be it? Would all of my questions be answered? Honestly, I almost piddled in my suit. My first instinct was to swerve in the other direction to save life, limb, and my beloved Jeep. I reached deep inside though and found something strong...strong enough to accept the challenge I had been given. My muscles seemed to swell with adrenaline as turned onto Exit 190. It was then that I remembered I had no snorkel, no roof rack, no fancy pants with zip out lower legs. Oh my god, what was I doing? It was too late though...I had committed my Jeep and my soul to the challenge.

After what can only be described as grueling travel across 31,680 inches of hot, desolate, cracked, two-year old asphalt...my trusty Jeep and I made it to the Holy Grail. We reached the Overland Trail. We did so without fanfare, without accolades, and without the need of a wench (although I'm certain I could have found a few in Truckee).

As I basked in my own greatness I could not help but notice the absence of anyone else. That's the answer, right? Overlanding simply means going places. It doesn't really matter so much how you get there, or whether you even reach your destination. What matters is the journey. I suspect we each drive Jeeps to take that journey. I guess that makes us all overlanders.

You da man! Way to risk life and limb to put this thread to rest. You've solved one of life's biggest mysteries. I will finally be able to sleep at night. Thank you!!! :)