RECOVERY GEAR : A Must Have Before Hitting the Trails

kevman65

kevman65

Hooked
bobfriesenhahn said:
The difference between recovery and lifting is that when lifting, any projectiles will be primarily up and down whereas they will be primarily horizontal during a recovery and also directed toward where people are most likely to be.
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No, the difference between the two is that 97% of the people on a job that are rigging know what they are doing and will YELL at the numbskull assembling incorrectly.

On the trail, it probably drops to 10%-15% that truly know how to rig.

What everybody danced around was, if you use the weighted saddle/bag like you're supposed to it's all moot because if something fails, it all hits the ground.

Like I said before, use a Crosby 3/4" shackle, you know what it's rated for and it's guaranteed. Soft shackles and off brand cutsie shackles are both a guess.
 
bobfriesenhahn

bobfriesenhahn

Hooked
kevman65 said:
No, the difference between the two is that 97% of the people on a job that are rigging know what they are doing and will YELL at the numbskull assembling incorrectly.

On the trail, it probably drops to 10%-15% that truly know how to rig.

What everybody danced around was, if you use the weighted saddle/bag like you're supposed to it's all moot because if something fails, it all hits the ground.

Like I said before, use a Crosby 3/4" shackle, you know what it's rated for and it's guaranteed. Soft shackles and off brand cutsie shackles are both a guess.
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So you are saying that lifting is not a vertical activity? What planet are you from? 😄
 
kevman65

kevman65

Hooked
bobfriesenhahn said:
So you are saying that lifting is not a vertical activity? What planet are you from? 😄
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No, I'm saying the difference is the knowledge/skill level between the two.

On the job, you're SUPPOSED to be NCCCO certified to even touch the rigging. Granted, some companies decide to use the OSHA program because it's cheaper, but then they up their liability.

On the trail, "I seen it done on EweToob like this" gets people in trouble. Use the safety device on the trail that takes the horizontal rocket out of play. Just like on the job we use every safety we can, like every leg of the rigging can handle the pick by itself.

The rigging doesn't care whether it's vertical or horizontal, it's all stress in a straight line.
 
J

jimcoffey62

Member
kevman65 said:
No, the difference between the two is that 97% of the people on a job that are rigging know what they are doing and will YELL at the numbskull assembling incorrectly.

On the trail, it probably drops to 10%-15% that truly know how to rig.

What everybody danced around was, if you use the weighted saddle/bag like you're supposed to it's all moot because if something fails, it all hits the ground.

Like I said before, use a Crosby 3/4" shackle, you know what it's rated for and it's guaranteed. Soft shackles and off brand cutsie shackles are both a guess.
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Yes - the riggers at a chem plant are highly trained and recertified every year. They also don't try to get close and take video for their instagram and facebook feeds.

My soft shackles are rated at 24,200 lbs for the 3/8" and 38,000 lbs for the 7/16" I don't buy gear that isn't rated.
I agree 100% with you that if your shackle (or any piece of gear) isn't rated you should just assume it will fail.
Obviously you need to use it properly, ditto for shackles.

As Bob mentioned above - when thinking about safety it's important to consider the line of fire ... where is the force going in the event of a break?

Most rigging lifts are vertical. So if something snaps the force is going down to ground (and nobody should be standing down there) or snap back up toward the crane - and the cranes and hoists I am familiar with don't have the operator in line with the load.
You can also have the line whip back and forth up to the length of the line depending on where the break occurred.

Whereas when pulling a stuck vehicle it is pretty common for the driver to be inside the stuck vehicle, and a driver in the vehicle being pulled out.
BOTH OF WHICH are directly in the line of fire.

a winch with a remote allows the winch operator to move out of the line of fire.
 
J

jimcoffey62

Member
kevman65 said:
No, I'm saying the difference is the knowledge/skill level between the two.

On the job, you're SUPPOSED to be NCCCO certified to even touch the rigging. Granted, some companies decide to use the OSHA program because it's cheaper, but then they up their liability.

On the trail, "I seen it done on EweToob like this" gets people in trouble. Use the safety device on the trail that takes the horizontal rocket out of play. Just like on the job we use every safety we can, like every leg of the rigging can handle the pick by itself.

The rigging doesn't care whether it's vertical or horizontal, it's all stress in a straight line.
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Since you're a rigger I have a couple of technical questions.

Steel shackle attached to a fabric rope loop. - my concern is abrasion of the fabric as it moves against the steel. Not really an issue for a straight pull - but how many pulls are straight vs. yawing back and forth? How concerned are you about abrasion?

Steel shackle attaching TWO rope loops together - would you rig so one loop is on the bow and the other is on the cotter pin? Both loops on the bow and avoid putting a load on the pin?

My gut tells me to use my steel shackles next to the vehicle, and NOT in the middle of the pull. (my gut has 40 years engineering experience BTW).
So I'd attach my steel shackle to my recovery point, and the rope to the shackle. If I need to join two ropes I'd use a soft shackle or tie a flat overhand knot.
As you said before, the steel shackle is unlikely to be the weak link. Which means it is most likely to become the projectile if something breaks.
So assuming the break is elsewhere - I want to have the smallest possible distance from the steel projectile to the vehicle.
Specifically I don't want a steel potential projectile in the middle of the pull.
And a winch blanket also helps redirect the force down toward the ground.

Correct my logic. I'm always looking to learn.
 
kevman65

kevman65

Hooked
If both ropes have the same direction of pull on the same side of the shackle, then it would be like attaching two straps from a single shackle down to the load.

Oops, missed part of it. If a shackle is in use correctly, the pin will always have a load on it. Just want to locate the pin where the least amount of movement will be. This is on the threaded version, on the clevis with the solid pin and a cotter key, rotational forces aren't a concern.

If you're connecting the two ropes together to lengthen the pull line, then opposite sides of the shackle. Bow to pin.

The rubbing thing, it bothers me on nylon strap eyes too. I tend to inspect the eyes after every pick. On my JT, I took a file to my shackles. Then sandpaper. Then I repainted them and did a clear coat. So I don't worry about abrasion. But I would check your rope rigging on regular occasions to see if you're getting any flat spots from the fibers breaking down. They aren't like steel chokers and won't hold up near as well 🤪
 
wayoflife

wayoflife

Administrator
Staff member
jimcoffey62 said:
I've noticed some folks getting torqued about "reviving an old thread."
Newbies (and old-bees) use Google which finds these old threads and often they are EXTREMELY valuable.
I've learned a huge amount about brake lock differentials from JK threads that are 10 years old. BLD was new back then and everyone was talking about it and experimenting with it.

Likewise I've learned a lot about lunch box lockers, posi-traction, LSD (the kind in your differential, not in your magic lemonaid), helical LSD vs clutch LSD ... from old threads.

If I see a post that seems incorrect, I might reply, especially if it is safety related ...
Newbies are going to find these old threads so I think it makes sense to post updates. Others may disagree.
YMMV
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If you read though the thread, the original intention of it was lost and it turned into agenda driven stupidness, the kind that was going on at the time. I realize that was not your intention and made the edit that I did because of it - so that it didn't resurrect the same kind of stupidness again.

As far as newbies go, I can't say that I've met a single one in the last 5-7 years that know what google is let alone knows how to use a search function on a forum. MOST today, if not ALL, get all their expert information from social media whores and that's a shame.
 
CalSgt

CalSgt

Hooked
wayoflife said:
MOST today, if not ALL, get all their expert information from social media whores and that's a shame.
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BUT... They made very compelling arguments as to why I absolutely NEED:
Patagonia tires
Oil catch can
a turbo to ensure the catch can is needed
Gimmick shocks that cost 3 times as much as proven ones
Chinese winch
Yank-um rope
Max tracks
Roof top tent
quadruple steering stabilizers
Skid plates for my skid plates

AND... Some of them even wear Yoga pants
 
wnorton

wnorton

Member
Agree with this. As of late, I’ve been trying to remove the metal. Replacing bow shackles, d rings and block and tackle with soft shackles and aluminum rollers.

I haven’t used a chain for 25 years so it’s gone from kit.

aside from the winch itself, my most used item is a kinetic rope. Often used in the sand dunes and beaches. Usually popping out non 4x4 tourists and beach goers.
 
bobfriesenhahn

bobfriesenhahn

Hooked
kevman65 said:
No, I'm saying the difference is the knowledge/skill level between the two.

On the job, you're SUPPOSED to be NCCCO certified to even touch the rigging. Granted, some companies decide to use the OSHA program because it's cheaper, but then they up their liability.

On the trail, "I seen it done on EweToob like this" gets people in trouble. Use the safety device on the trail that takes the horizontal rocket out of play. Just like on the job we use every safety we can, like every leg of the rigging can handle the pick by itself.

The rigging doesn't care whether it's vertical or horizontal, it's all stress in a straight line.
Click to expand...
Wow! If you were not already certified, you are certainly certifiable!
 
benatc1

benatc1

Hooked
How would someone who knows nothing about “rigging”, and is here to learn because they are new, know that what you are saying is the as absolute correct vs what someone else says?? This is the ever living part of the Internet forum, and something, which you eluded to, can be very frustrating for people. However one thing that makes WAL great is the content isn’t controlled like many other forums, does that mean you get some wrong info from to time, sure, but there are enough experienced people on here to help guide people back in the right direction. You may be totally right and someone else totally wrong but as long as you or next guy comes here just to save us all from the bad information, I think we’ll all survive.
 
J

jimcoffey62

Member
benatc1 said:
How would someone who knows nothing about “rigging”, and is here to learn because they are new, know that what you are saying is the as absolute correct vs what someone else says?? This is the ever living part of the Internet forum, and something, which you eluded to, can be very frustrating for people. However one thing that makes WAL great is the content isn’t controlled like many other forums, does that mean you get some wrong info from to time, sure, but there are enough experienced people on here to help guide people back in the right direction. You may be totally right and someone else totally wrong but as long as you or next guy comes here just to save us all from the bad information, I think we’ll all survive.
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Benatc - exactly correct. That's the good and bad about the internet forums.

1. anyone can post
2. anyone can disagree
3. anyone can add snarky remarks
They may or may not have any actual expertise.
So you cross reference in other areas, look at what they say and how they say it.

If you say you are a rigger at a refinery (and the way you reply matches that claim)- I'm going to give you HUGE expertise points.
Or if you've been 4 wheeling and producing professional Jeep content for decades like Eddie your insight carries lots of weight.

I try to assume that folks are experts and/or well meaning and want to learn until their actions point otherwise.
 
J

jimcoffey62

Member
wayoflife said:
main.php

If there's one question I get asked all the time from new Jeepers it's, “what’s the first mod I should do to my Jeep?” And, my answer to them is always the same, “recovery gear”. Fact of the matter is, whether you’re new to the world of off-roading with a right off the show room floor stock Jeep, or a long time veteran with a highly modified built up trail rig, everyone gets into a jam sooner or later.

Recovery Bag
Last but not least, having something to carry all your recovery gear is in my opinion, a must. If you can keep everything together and in one bag or container, it'll make it easier for you to remember to pack in your Jeep and ensure you always have it with you.

Recovery gear is an investment that every Jeeper should make. Isn't just a good idea to have, it's often required equipment on most organized runs and one that I can almost guarantee will pay for itself time and time again. :yup:
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Eddie - this is a really good topic for a sticky post. Updated as the state of the art changes.
Your original is also a really good post with pictures and such. Well done sir.

FYI I learned something new about "snatch blocks" the other day when I was at our local sailing supply store.
A snatch block is different from a pulley block, because you can "snatch" an existing line that is in tension by rotating the metal pieces and wrapping the block around the rope. Then apply tension in a different direction. This apparently is a big deal on a sailboat.
When rigging a winch BEFORE you do the pull you can thread the line around pulley blocks to get mechanical advantage. But if you don't do that ahead of time you can't just add a pulley after you have things all rigged up.

ENTER THE SNATCH BLOCK: Once you start the pull, and you realize you don't have enough power and you need more mechanical advantage - you can put a snatch block on the line and rig it back to the load to give you a 2x advantage.

initially I had thought you could do it while things are in tension, but after running through this in my head I think you'd need to chock the vehicle wheels, release tension, add the snatch block - but you don't have to rethread everything. Feel free to correct me if you've done this.

Pulley's and soft shackles are smaller and lighter so I didn't buy a snatch block for my kit.
I
www.alllifting.com.au

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PULLEY BLOCK AND A SNATCH BLOCK

Pulley blocks and snatch blocks are both pulley blocks; these lifting tools have a wheel on an axle designed to help you lift heavy items up to 30 tonne. Pulley blocks give direction to the rope while loaded; they are able to increase the line pull or lifting capacity of a hoist or winch by...
www.alllifting.com.au www.alllifting.com.au
 
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