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Thread: Bear's Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante

  1. #21
    Living the WAYALIFE JAGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayoflife View Post
    It sucks to no fuckin end that there are yahoos out there who destroy the beauty this country has to offer. You know this absolutely kills me and to the point where I don't tell people where a lot of the places we visit are. That being said, I would rather take my chances with the yahoos then to have the government seize all of it and prevent me from visiting them too. Unfortunately, freedom for ALL includes the fuckards of this world.

    The land is "given back" to the BLM. In spite of what the New York Times and the like will have you believe, there is no simple reselling or leasing of the land as Jesse pointed out.
    I haven't read the NYT either for that matter.

    I know land issues/abuses eat at you. I could only hope all folks would have the some good intentions as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse3638 View Post
    Both conservationists and large corporations have more powerful lawyers than the government in most cases. Land use issues will be litigated for years. Either way the BLM will end up being sued. All land management agencies typical are.
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  2. #22
    Meme King WJCO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayoflife View Post
    Public land needs to be protected FOR the people - not FROM the people.
    ^ This is the thesis statement of the whole issue. I hope this remains the case for this land.

    I have seen the headlines today but haven't had time to read the articles. Just based on the headlines, it seems like the right and left trying to buttfuck each other rather than protect the people of this great nation. Time will tell.
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  3. #23
    Nothing but a Thing SDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WJCO View Post
    ^ This is the thesis statement of the whole issue. I hope this remains the case for this land.

    I have seen the headlines today but haven't had time to read the articles. Just based on the headlines, it seems like the right and left trying to buttfuck each other rather than protect the people of this great nation. Time will tell.
    I had a bit of time to read a little...

    Enviros claim mining, timber, oil, blah blah... the closest claim is there appears to be coal deposits near escalante... and we all know how booming the coal industry is in the US LOL... especially out in BFE...

    The Indians want it for its historic value...

    Seems like ranchers want it for grazing, may be open for some other light use activities as well... off road parks, etc NOT being one of them.

    We shall see.
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  4. #24
    Addict jesse3638's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDG View Post
    I had a bit of time to read a little...

    Enviros claim mining, timber, oil, blah blah... the closest claim is there appears to be coal deposits near escalante... and we all know how booming the coal industry is in the US LOL... especially out in BFE...

    The Indians want it for its historic value...

    Seems like ranchers want it for grazing, may be open for some other light use activities as well... off road parks, etc NOT being one of them.

    We shall see.
    Yeah that's what I saw as well. Last I checked there is not much of a market for Juniper trees. Firewood cutter are about the only ones who use it. Those types of industries are just being used to try and push their agenda being the bad connotation associated with them. The other activity I could see would be hunting and fishing (if there is fishing). I don't believe you can hunt in a designated monument. I may be wrong though.

    Edit: Depending on the monument you can hunt.

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    Last edited by jesse3638; 12-05-2017 at 07:05 PM.

  5. #25
    Addict Brute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayoflife View Post
    Outside of the dramatic rhetoric being published in the New York Times or the like, I have yet to see any evidence of ANY private entity that has sought out to exclusively lease any of this land prior to it becoming a national monument or here after. The most they can claim is that they're "at risk" and would "possibly" be opened to exploitation.
    I do agree with you on one point...I am a believer in smaller federal government and allowing individual states to determine the future of their land use...but I generally distrust that decisions made at both the state and federal level will be wise ones that benefit all of the citizenry of those particular states...I have personally seen special interest groups with powerful lobbys that have influenced and even change existing laws to benefit a relatively small group financially.

    While we may not be aware of any entities that have designs of use commercially for these areas at this time, trust me...there are some who eventually will. At some point, when it is seen as cost effective to seek out resource exploration, these permits will be applied for...and most likely granted. Only time will tell if these decisions benefit the residents of Utah, and at what cost.

    To my point of general distrust of government decisions to protect land use for the benefit of all, I offer the mining project in the Bristol Bay Area of Alaska. This watershed is home to the single largest sockeye salmon fishery in the world, worth several hundred millions dollars of revenue for the local population. The watershed was previously protected by the federal govt via the EPA to ban any large scale mining in the area, based upon residents not in favor of the project and scientific studies showing that the proposed "lake of acid" required to store the acid used in processing the gold & copper ore could potentially destroy permanently the river systems home to the salmon, not to mention all the other wildlife effected by a catastrophic failure. The new administration has appointed a new head of the EPA, and immediately removed this protection and will allow the permit application to proceed of the Pebble Group to construct the single largest open pit mine in the world for gold & copper...a Canadian company...what possibly could go wrong?

    Land use issues are complicated...on one hand, I too believe that lands should remain open to public use...but sometimes misguided individuals make decisions that are not in the best interest of everyone....and some decisions have a permanent impact to the land that may not be reversible. On the other hand, I also strongly believe in being more self reliant in energy resource...the trick is to find the balance that achieves both of these goals.

  6. #26
    Addict jesse3638's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brute View Post
    I do agree with you on one point...I am a believer in smaller federal government and allowing individual states to determine the future of their land use...but I generally distrust that decisions made at both the state and federal level will be wise ones that benefit all of the citizenry of those particular states...I have personally seen special interest groups with powerful lobbys that have influenced and even change existing laws to benefit a relatively small group financially.

    While we may not be aware of any entities that have designs of use commercially for these areas at this time, trust me...there are some who eventually will. At some point, when it is seen as cost effective to seek out resource exploration, these permits will be applied for...and most likely granted. Only time will tell if these decisions benefit the residents of Utah, and at what cost.

    To my point of general distrust of government decisions to protect land use for the benefit of all, I offer the mining project in the Bristol Bay Area of Alaska. This watershed is home to the single largest sockeye salmon fishery in the world, worth several hundred millions dollars of revenue for the local population. The watershed was previously protected by the federal govt via the EPA to ban any large scale mining in the area, based upon residents not in favor of the project and scientific studies showing that the proposed "lake of acid" required to store the acid used in processing the gold & copper ore could potentially destroy permanently the river systems home to the salmon, not to mention all the other wildlife effected by a catastrophic failure. The new administration has appointed a new head of the EPA, and immediately removed this protection and will allow the permit application to proceed of the Pebble Group to construct the single largest open pit mine in the world for gold & copper...a Canadian company...what possibly could go wrong?

    Land use issues are complicated...on one hand, I too believe that lands should remain open to public use...but sometimes misguided individuals make decisions that are not in the best interest of everyone....and some decisions have a permanent impact to the land that may not be reversible. On the other hand, I also strongly believe in being more self reliant in energy resource...the trick is to find the balance that achieves both of these goals.
    You're absolutely right. I've personally seen "Stewards of the Land" try and make decisions based off of personal opinions and agendas. It really is a slippery slope and too many people/groups involved has a similar affect as decisions be affected by special interest lobbyists on small groups.

  7. #27
    Administrator wayoflife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brute View Post
    I do agree with you on one point...I am a believer in smaller federal government and allowing individual states to determine the future of their land use...but I generally distrust that decisions made at both the state and federal level will be wise ones that benefit all of the citizenry of those particular states...I have personally seen special interest groups with powerful lobbys that have influenced and even change existing laws to benefit a relatively small group financially.

    While we may not be aware of any entities that have designs of use commercially for these areas at this time, trust me...there are some who eventually will. At some point, when it is seen as cost effective to seek out resource exploration, these permits will be applied for...and most likely granted. Only time will tell if these decisions benefit the residents of Utah, and at what cost.

    To my point of general distrust of government decisions to protect land use for the benefit of all, I offer the mining project in the Bristol Bay Area of Alaska. This watershed is home to the single largest sockeye salmon fishery in the world, worth several hundred millions dollars of revenue for the local population. The watershed was previously protected by the federal govt via the EPA to ban any large scale mining in the area, based upon residents not in favor of the project and scientific studies showing that the proposed "lake of acid" required to store the acid used in processing the gold & copper ore could potentially destroy permanently the river systems home to the salmon, not to mention all the other wildlife effected by a catastrophic failure. The new administration has appointed a new head of the EPA, and immediately removed this protection and will allow the permit application to proceed of the Pebble Group to construct the single largest open pit mine in the world for gold & copper...a Canadian company...what possibly could go wrong?

    Land use issues are complicated...on one hand, I too believe that lands should remain open to public use...but sometimes misguided individuals make decisions that are not in the best interest of everyone....and some decisions have a permanent impact to the land that may not be reversible. On the other hand, I also strongly believe in being more self reliant in energy resource...the trick is to find the balance that achieves both of these goals.
    Funny thing is, I actually WANT the federal government to maintain control of public lands but through the BLM - NOT through National Monuments. I can't speak for Alaska or what goes on in the waters surrounding it but what I can tell you is that I've been fortunate enough to have explored pretty much everything west of the Rockies since the 1970's. During that time, I have seen an ungodly amount of land seized and the use of them restricted and ALL of at the hands of the government. I have not seen a single instance where vast swaths of public land had been restricted due to a corporation. Of course, that has just been my personal experience.

    Here in Nevada, Gold Buttes was commandeered at the same time as the Bears Ears. This is a beautiful area in southern Nevada and it disappointed me to no end that so much of it was made into a National Monument. This is not to say that there isn't a value to protecting parts of it but the amount of land grabbed seemed unreasonable or at least to me anyway. I am glad to hear this monument is under review as well.

  8. #28
    Word Ninja Sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayoflife View Post
    Funny thing is, I actually WANT the federal government to maintain control of public lands but through the BLM - NOT through National Monuments. I can't speak for Alaska or what goes on in the waters surrounding it but what I can tell you is that I've been fortunate enough to have explored pretty much everything west of the Rockies since the 1970's. During that time, I have seen an ungodly amount of land seized and the use of them restricted and ALL of at the hands of the government. I have not seen a single instance where vast swaths of public land had been restricted due to a corporation. Of course, that has just been my personal experience.

    Here in Nevada, Gold Buttes was commandeered at the same time as the Bears Ears. This is a beautiful area in southern Nevada and it disappointed me to no end that so much of it was made into a National Monument. This is not to say that there isn't a value to protecting parts of it but the amount of land grabbed seemed unreasonable or at least to me anyway. I am glad to hear this monument is under review as well.
    I'm in the same camp as you on this. On balance, I believe the BLM does a pretty damn good job and I shudder at the thought of federal public lands in Nevada becoming truly state owned land.
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  9. #29
    Addict Brute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayoflife View Post
    Funny thing is, I actually WANT the federal government to maintain control of public lands but through the BLM - NOT through National Monuments. I can't speak for Alaska or what goes on in the waters surrounding it but what I can tell you is that I've been fortunate enough to have explored pretty much everything west of the Rockies since the 1970's. During that time, I have seen an ungodly amount of land seized and the use of them restricted and ALL of at the hands of the government. I have not seen a single instance where vast swaths of public land had been restricted due to a corporation. Of course, that has just been my personal experience.

    Here in Nevada, Gold Buttes was commandeered at the same time as the Bears Ears. This is a beautiful area in southern Nevada and it disappointed me to no end that so much of it was made into a National Monument. This is not to say that there isn't a value to protecting parts of it but the amount of land grabbed seemed unreasonable or at least to me anyway. I am glad to hear this monument is under review as well.
    So who has jurisdiction over the lands that are no longer Monument Land in Utah?...the State of Utah, or the federal govt?

  10. #30
    Administrator wayoflife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brute View Post
    So who has jurisdiction over the lands that are no longer Monument Land in Utah?...the State of Utah, or the federal govt?
    To the best of my knowledge, the land was BLM prior to becoming a National Monument. If what's going on in Utah is anything like the Gold Buttes here in Nevada, it would go back to the BLM. That would be the feds.

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