Bandoola - Moab Roll-over

wjtstudios

Hooked
Still crazy seeing those pictures, that’s one hell of a build to keep you safe like that.

glad you’ve got it almost back together
 
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p38

Caught the Bug
Still crazy seeing those pictures, that’s one hell of a build to keep you safe like that.

glad you’ve got it almost back together
To be honest, this post is the first time I really took a close hard look at the stills. I did watch the video a few times and since I wasn't hurt and the jeep only received a few dents, I moved on. But studying them now, especially the first one where I'm above the drop and still on all 4 tires - holy crap - what was I headed into? I was right on the spotter's line - but damn, that's a hell of a drop; and Bandoola is a relatively short jeep.
 

Elroy231

Active Member
Wow. Pretty crazy few moment you had in that seat!!! As I stated before im glad that your okay. Did a great job on that build to keep the damage as minimal as it is.
 
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Colorado4x4

Caught the Bug
I found some pictures of the way we come down High Dive. It’s more easy for sure than the way you were lined up. I’ve never tried coming down with the passenger tire on that big rock. I’m too scared to try that and I still don’t understand how that line would work. Seems like every time I see somebody come off that way they’re about to roll! So, this is the baby way to come off. Pics are from 2015. My black JK on 33s and 2.5” lift. 6AFD8E02-8986-41C3-98E3-C2F3A92E0BD3.jpeg 2E64F131-8EFC-4860-979B-85A6F6F26CF1.jpeg 3DFCEC86-BAE3-4FD9-9662-989814DE1E62.jpeg
 
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p38

Caught the Bug
Wow. Pretty crazy few moment you had in that seat!!! As I stated before im glad that your okay. Did a great job on that build to keep the damage as minimal as it is.
Thanks. We joked during the build about how much that thing was like a tank - it sure paid off. I'm going to start a new thread on the build, mods, and repair.
 

p38

Caught the Bug
I found some pictures of the way we come down High Dive. It’s more easy for sure than the way you were lined up. I’ve never tried coming down with the passenger tire on that big rock. I’m too scared to try that and I still don’t understand how that line would work. Seems like every time I see somebody come off that way they’re about to roll! So, this is the baby way to come off. Pics are from 2015. My black JK on 33s and 2.5” lift. View attachment 366182 View attachment 366183 View attachment 366184
Well - let me state the obvious - I like your way a hell of a lot better! If memory serves me correctly, the spotter was signaling me to turn pax. I don't think he intended for me to actually come down the way I did. The brakes were not holding back against low gear and the weight of the rig; when the line popped I rolled forward faster than I could turn pax and get over to the right.
Thanks Geoff
 

Colorado4x4

Caught the Bug
Well - let me state the obvious - I like your way a hell of a lot better! If memory serves me correctly, the spotter was signaling me to turn pax. I don't think he intended for me to actually come down the way I did. The brakes were not holding back against low gear and the weight of the rig; when the line popped I rolled forward faster than I could turn pax and get over to the right.
Thanks Geoff
He had to been trying to take you hard passenger at that point, in my humble opinion. The middle of your front axle tube would have hit that big rock and I don’t see that line happening without problem. Still, it looks like your rig should have been a foot more to the passenger side in the first pic.
 

p38

Caught the Bug
He had to been trying to take you hard passenger at that point, in my humble opinion. The middle of your front axle tube would have hit that big rock and I don’t see that line happening without problem. Still, it looks like your rig should have been a foot more to the passenger side in the first pic.
This is the part where the brake pedal went to the floor and I was having trouble slowing down, the brakes never were able to slow it down in low - but this was worse. I might have been advancing faster than he anticipated. Next was 1 pump on the pedal and "pop". You know the rest.
 

p38

Caught the Bug
I'd kinda like to see the brake line & why/how it failed...
63889221249__A8ACF102-3602-490B-A783-947249A3719E.jpeg 63889222546__97C79981-6050-40D9-AE90-8A8D5EC12102.jpeg
Here ya go. Front left caliper, the line detached at the fitting. The next picture is the line but it's a bit out of focus.

The first two theories were a snag on one of the prior obstacles or over extension of the line.
There was no indication of a snag - no marks or damage to the line. As for over extension. My brake lines travel out the long arms to the axle tube then out to the respective wheel - they articulate with the tube assembly. The only travel they have is thru the steering arc. Over extension was quickly eliminated.
When I got the rig home and into the shop I had the entire brake system insspected and engineered. I'll post their findings - what do you think about what you see in the pictures?
 

Ddays

Hooked
View attachment 366187 View attachment 366188
Here ya go. Front left caliper, the line detached at the fitting. The next picture is the line but it's a bit out of focus.

The first two theories were a snag on one of the prior obstacles or over extension of the line.
There was no indication of a snag - no marks or damage to the line. As for over extension. My brake lines travel out the long arms to the axle tube then out to the respective wheel - they articulate with the tube assembly. The only travel they have is thru the steering arc. Over extension was quickly eliminated.
When I got the rig home and into the shop I had the entire brake system insspected and engineered. I'll post their findings - what do you think about what you see in the pictures?

Did the line rub on the RCV boot? Something sure did.
 

CalSgt

Hooked
what do you think about what you see in the pictures?
I'm not a brake line expert, that being said I'm going to give it the typical internet know it all try. FWIW I did stay at a holiday inn express once:

I would think a lower profile fitting would be less stressed while turning. Does anyone even make a brake line that doesn't require the male to male adapter on your caliper? Perhaps a braided line with a hard line 90 degree fitting at the end or maybe a banjo fitting.

Seems like factory lines on most stuff end with a hardline 90 degree fitting, there's got to be some reason the factory does it that way.

If the brake line came out of the caliper and the line arched upwards it would allow a longer brake line to fit in the space and have a more natural bend to it. When turning full lock one way the line would want to arch upwards & full lock the other it would get close to flattening out but still have a slight arch to it.

If it goes straight into the caliper it may not want to bend the same way each time, also the point where yours broke will take the brunt of the stress each time the line wants to bend or flex.
 

MericaMade

Active Member
Wow, glad you are OK. I agree with Ddays it looks like the line could be rubbing on the RCV but hard to tell from that angle.
 

p38

Caught the Bug
I'm not a brake line expert, that being said I'm going to give it the typical internet know it all try. FWIW I did stay at a holiday inn express once:

I would think a lower profile fitting would be less stressed while turning. Does anyone even make a brake line that doesn't require the male to male adapter on your caliper? Perhaps a braided line with a hard line 90 degree fitting at the end or maybe a banjo fitting.

Seems like factory lines on most stuff end with a hardline 90 degree fitting, there's got to be some reason the factory does it that way.

If the brake line came out of the caliper and the line arched upwards it would allow a longer brake line to fit in the space and have a more natural bend to it. When turning full lock one way the line would want to arch upwards & full lock the other it would get close to flattening out but still have a slight arch to it.

If it goes straight into the caliper it may not want to bend the same way each time, also the point where yours broke will take the brunt of the stress each time the line wants to bend or flex.
We stood around staring at it going over all the things you mention and a few more. The rig was lifted up and travel checked in all directions - articulation, turning, articulation and turning, etc. There was binding, stretching, or line contact of any kind; plus, I was rolling straight ahead with no extension or articulation when the line fail. All those other moves came afterward. For the record - I was pissed when I saw what failed. The hose fitting burst off of the connector.
Bring in the engineers: The entire brake system was removed from the jeep piece by piece and evaluated. I can't go into specifics (the reason should be obvious) but basically, there wasn't enough stopping power in the calipers - especially in low 4wd, the lines, -3's, were too small to carry enough volume to the calipers and to handle the pressure output of the master cylinder - a single system, so when the front line failed - I lost the rear as well. There were other fittings found seeping - they were not loose - they were failing. So - I'm rolling down that obstacle, foot down hard on the brake pedal to arrest the descent, I give it a pump with as much force as I can - and "pop" goes the fitting. The engineers know the rated capacities for all the lines, fittings, calipers, and the output pressure of the master cylinder - they know how it happened.
So now we know what's to blame - but who's to blame? Well, at this point the easiest entity to point a finger at - is me. This jeep has been in a constant state of evolution since it's inception. Basically, it's gotten heavier and the brake system hasn't kept up; and that single master cylinder just got past me somehow. Who knows, this might have been a good thing; as some on the forum have pointed out - there's worse places for this to have happened. So the jeep has a few dents, I was unhurt, we discovered a major flaw, and once I get over the embarrassment - all will be well. To quote my wife, "You're not dead, you didn't even get a scratch, you took it in the wallet - so fix it".
To comply with her instructions, the entire brake system has been redesigned and is in the process of being reinstalled. I do not know all the details, but - larger calipers, larger lines, different fittings - I believe some are banjo, dual master cylinder - front and rear, new pedal assembly, etc. That's all I know as far as the system. Last I heard the new backing plates were being machined. I'll post a thread with pictures when it's done.
 

p38

Caught the Bug
I am readdressing this particular photo because there is something very valuable here which needs to be stated and was omitted in the original post because I was more concerned with defending my action. I would like to acknowledge OverlanderJK for calling me on this - he is 100% correct. The best intentions are not always the smartest course of action. When I realized I was headed off that edge, I yelled to the spotter and waved him out of the way - good intention. While in this particular situation there was enough distance from the rock and time to get my arm back inside, it was not smart. As OverlanderJK pointed out in private conversation, the spotter sees what's happening and will get out of the way.
I built a tank, with the underlying idea if anything happened, just stay inside and hang on - and I intentionally stuck my arm out. It worked - this time. But what if it hadn't? The spotter got out of way, the jeep had a few dents, and I could have lost an arm - and it would have been my fault.
This forum is all about sharing ideas, adventures, interests, experiences, with a number of topics; perhaps there needs to be a new one - confessions or warnings. At the airline we had a program of "Self Disclosure", where you could confess your misdeed or infraction with the primary focus serving to educate others. This is certainly one of those occasions.
What ever the case - KEEP YOUR ARMS INSIDE.
 
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