Evo Double D, Metalcloak or Rock Krawler 3.5" Lift Pro's & Con's.

[chitown35]

Springs aside, the physical length of a shock will determine how much lift you actually need. Also, just because a shock has a specified amount of travel doesn't necessarily mean that all of it is actually usable.



Clearly, you haven't run very many springs to understand how different each will yield and or behave on a 2-door, 4-door, loaded up or super light weight. The only way you could know what they will net is from personal experience or the experience of others.



Knowing a number won't tell you how much lift you'll have or what the ride will be like.



LOL!! Sure, you can run a stiffer spring that won't over compress but then, you're ride will be harsh and you'll never get the kind of stuff you'd need to use up the entire length of your shock. Of course, you can also get a coil that's super soft and won't over compress but then, you'd run the risk of going solid on the coils and that would also lead to a harsh ride.



Spoken like a true engineer. Numbers are great but they won't tell you how something will "feel" and what experience will show.



LOL!! Right, because I would never have thought about that. :crazyeyes:

I don't see the conclusion you're recommending here, since numbers don't tell you anything and you'd have to try a bunch of different springs in a coilover setup too...?

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[chitown35]

Sometimes when I'm on this site I wonder if the earth is still flat because I didn't see it from space with my own eyes and science and numbers are all mumbo jumbo.

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[wayoflife]

I don't see the conclusion you're recommending here, since numbers don't tell you anything and you'd have to try a bunch of different springs in a coilover setup too...?

:cheesy: Ummm, duh! The nice thing about coil overs is that you can actually order them in specific spring rates. A bolt on coil over runs 2 springs and so you can run them in something like a 250/300. That would give you a nice all around soft ride with a second coil that's timed to soak up a bigger hit. Of course, if you're carrying a lot of weight, you can run something like a 350/400 in the rear and that would keep you more level. I've gone through a myriad of coil combinations over the years to give me a ride that I prefer - ride quality is after all 100% subjective. Numbers are great in that they can help you to know if you want to go up or down but they alone can't determine how they'll feel to you or even how they will look on every Jeep.

Sometimes when I'm on this site I wonder if the earth is still flat because I didn't see it from space with my own eyes and science and numbers are all mumbo jumbo.

LOL!! You still need to have faith in your numbers to believe that they alone can tell you that the world is round.

 

[chitown35]

:cheesy: Ummm, duh! The nice thing about coil overs is that you can actually order them in specific spring rates. A bolt on coil over runs 2 springs and so you can run them in something like a 250/300. That would give you a nice all around soft ride with a second coil that's timed to soak up a bigger hit. Of course, if you're carrying a lot of weight, you can run something like a 350/400 in the rear and that would keep you more level. I've gone through a myriad of coil combinations over the years to give me a ride that I prefer - ride quality is after all 100% subjective. Numbers are great in that they can help you to know if you want to go up or down but they alone can't determine how they'll feel to you or even how they will look on every Jeep.



LOL!! You still need to have faith in your numbers to believe that they alone can tell you that the world is round.

I don't see why the same numbers can't be used for choosing standard coils then.

 

[wayoflife]

I don't see why the same numbers can't be used for choosing standard coils then.

You can't see it because you've convinced yourself that you understand everything.

Since you seemed to have missed it, numbers are great in that they can help you to know if you want to go up or down but they alone can't determine how they'll "feel" to you or even how they will "look" on every Jeep. Feel is SUBJECTIVE and looks will vary depending on size and weight. The coils on coil overs is just a starting point - you can also adjust the pre-load on them to fine tune where you want to be. You cannot do this with standard coils.

 

[chitown35]

You can't see it because you've convinced yourself that you understand everything.

Since you seemed to have missed it, numbers are great in that they can help you to know if you want to go up or down but they alone can't determine how they'll "feel" to you or even how they will "look" on every Jeep. Feel is SUBJECTIVE and looks will vary depending on size and weight. The coils on coil overs is just a starting point - you can also adjust the pre-load on them to fine tune where you want to be. You cannot do this with standard coils.

Yeah, the ability to adjust pre load is awesome.

But if you knew the rate of your stock jeep could you can still use that as a reference point to go up and down.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the concept of coilovers. But I refuse to accept letting companies say I can't pick good standard coils.

 

[wayoflife]

Yeah, the ability to adjust pre load is awesome.

It makes a big difference. Even with the heavy coils that I run on Moby, I still add in about 2.5" of pre-load to get me to where I prefer to be.

But if you knew the rate of your stock jeep could you can still use that as a reference point to go up and down.

I suppose if you're happy with the ride quality of factory coils. Me, I can't stand them and would be bummed if that was the only reference point to go off of.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the concept of coilovers. But I refuse to accept letting companies say I can't pick good standard coils.

And, that's why I say you should just order up your own coils. Being that you're a numbers guy, I would think that you could calculate what you want. I've done it in the past through a company called Valley Spring Works but I know that a lot of manufacturers use Bettes. You just give them the gauge wire you want to use, the diameter of the coil you need, the number of winds you want and the spacing between them and they'll make what you order.

 

[chitown35]

It makes a big difference. Even with the heavy coils that I run on Moby, I still add in about 2.5" of pre-load to get me to where I prefer to be.

I suppose if you're happy with the ride quality of factory coils. Me, I can't stand them and would be bummed if that was the only reference point to go off of.



And, that's why I say you should just order up your own coils. Being that you're a numbers guy, I would think that you could calculate what you want. I've done it in the past through a company called Valley Spring Works but I know that a lot of manufacturers use Bettes. You just give them the gauge wire you want to use, the diameter of the coil you need, the number of winds you want and the spacing between them and they'll make what you order.

I do think that's a good idea. Not sure if there are options for multi rates or if different material compositions are even a consideration, but yeah... Anyway I'm not saying they're aren't already good coils out there too (even if rates aren't published).

 

[wayoflife]

I do think that's a good idea. Not sure if there are options for multi rates or if different material compositions are even a consideration, but yeah... Anyway I'm not saying they're aren't already good coils out there too (even if rates aren't published).

I don't know if they do different material compositions but I do know they will do multi rates. In fact, that's what I had made and why I had my own made. Back then, nobody was really doing it.

 

[JKDream]

You don't see the point because you don't really understand how things work. In order to run a longer shock, you NEED to run a taller lift OR have little to no usable uptravel. The bolt-on coil over kit relocates the upper mounting point higher so that you can still retain a lower stance. Also, this is to say NOTHING about the fact that coil overs allow you to run 2 different spring rates and that'll give you the ablity to have a softer coil that provides a nice ride normal/medium use AND then have a timed second heavier coil kick in to soak up bigger hits. Of course, you can also have the valving set to your taste and then there's the ability to adjust your ride height as needed too. There simply is NO comparing a longer shock and coil to a coil over system.

That being said, I personally wouldn't recommend spending that much money on something that would see very little use and would be destroyed by the first winter it sees.

I have a question for you regarding coilovers vs spring/shock flex.

If a coilover system such as the bolt ons move the shock mount higher up than the factory setup, wouldn't this limit your downtravel in the shock?

I understand you would increase your uptravel, but this would be negated by the amount of bumpstop you would run on both systems.

Say you run a 3 inch bump stop on both the coilovers and the shock/spring setup, theoretically you would have the same amount of uptravel until full bump.

But since your shock mount is higher on the coilover, you would have limited the downtravel versus the standard setup.
Does this make sense or am I out to lunch?

 

[wayoflife]

If a coilover system such as the bolt ons move the shock mount higher up than the factory setup, wouldn't this limit your downtravel in the shock?

I understand you would increase your uptravel, but this would be negated by the amount of bumpstop you would run on both systems.

Say you run a 3 inch bump stop on both the coilovers and the shock/spring setup, theoretically you would have the same amount of uptravel until full bump.

But since your shock mount is higher on the coilover, you would have limited the downtravel versus the standard setup.
Does this make sense or am I out to lunch?

Moving the mount higher up simply allows you to run a longer travel shock without having to run a taller lift. This is helped even more by virtue of the fact that a coil over with a remote reservoir will be able to use up the whole body. The amount of up travel you have will be about the same but you will now have a greater amount of stuff.

Of course, a longer shock will offer more travel and that will give you a greater amount of droop and while still being able to retain a lower stance. Does this make sense?

Bolt on coil overs set at a low 3" of lift and trimmed fenders to clear 37" tires.

Something like a long travel OME shock physically has a LONGER body and in order to come close to using the travel it offers, you need to run a much taller lift. I would also add that just because a shock or even some coil over setups offer X amount of travel, that doesn't always mean you will get that amount of TRUE vertical travel. For instance, I have personally seen and measured a Rebel kit that has 14" coil overs and it only yielded a true 9" of vertical travel. Not all is what it would seem.

 

[JKDream]

Moving the mount higher up simply allows you to run a longer travel shock without having to run a taller lift. This is helped even more by virtue of the fact that a coil over with a remote reservoir will be able to use up the whole body. The amount of up travel you have will be about the same but you will now have a greater amount of stuff.


Of course, a longer shock will offer more travel and that will give you a greater amount of droop and while still being able to retain a lower stance. Does this make sense?


Bolt on coil overs set at a low 3" of lift and trimmed fenders to clear 37" tires.


Something like a long travel OME shock physically has a LONGER body and in order to come close to using the travel it offers, you need to run a much taller lift. I would also add that just because a shock or even some coil over setups offer X amount of travel, that doesn't always mean you will get that amount of TRUE vertical travel. For instance, I have personally seen and measured a Rebel kit that has 14" coil overs and it only yielded a true 9" of vertical travel. Not all is what it would seem.

That does make sense, thank you for the detailed explanation.

I just swapped over from my white bodies to a 4 inch longer shock, I did gain quite a bit more droop but lost an inch of uptravel due to bumpstop.

Albeit I probably should have had 3" bumps in the first place lol. My 4 inch kit came with 2 inch bumpstops :/

 

[chitown35]

Moving the mount higher up simply allows you to run a longer travel shock without having to run a taller lift. This is helped even more by virtue of the fact that a coil over with a remote reservoir will be able to use up the whole body. The amount of up travel you have will be about the same but you will now have a greater amount of stuff.

Of course, a longer shock will offer more travel and that will give you a greater amount of droop and while still being able to retain a lower stance. Does this make sense?

Bolt on coil overs set at a low 3" of lift and trimmed fenders to clear 37" tires.

Something like a long travel OME shock physically has a LONGER body and in order to come close to using the travel it offers, you need to run a much taller lift. I would also add that just because a shock or even some coil over setups offer X amount of travel, that doesn't always mean you will get that amount of TRUE vertical travel. For instance, I have personally seen and measured a Rebel kit that has 14" coil overs and it only yielded a true 9" of vertical travel. Not all is what it would seem.

This seems to be the big missing explanation on coilovers that doesn't get written up enough IMO...the extra travel doesn't come the fact that they're coilovers, it's from relocated mounts and remote reservoirs.

 

[wayoflife]

This seems to be the big missing explanation on coilovers that doesn't get written up enough IMO...the extra travel doesn't come the fact that they're coilovers, it's from relocated mounts and remote reservoirs.

Probably because not all coil over systems are made equally. Some actually offer LESS travel as I mentioned with the Rebel kit above. Shock length doesn't automatically = big flex. An EVO DTD uses, 12" coil overs and bypass shocks up front and only 8" in the rear but still manages to offers a true 14" of vertical travel.

The biggest benefit to a good coil over setup is that you can get big travel with a low stance. Sky high lifts were all the rage back in the 80's and 90's but this is the 21st century and things like center of gravity and keeping it as low as possible is what most of us now want.

 

[chitown35]

Probably because not all coil over systems are made equally. Some actually offer LESS travel as I mentioned with the Rebel kit above. Shock length doesn't automatically = big flex. An EVO DTD uses, 12" coil overs and bypass shocks up front and only 8" in the rear but still manages to offers a true 14" of vertical travel.

The biggest benefit to a good coil over setup is that you can get big travel with a low stance. Sky high lifts were all the rage back in the 80's and 90's but this is the 21st century and things like center of gravity and keeping it as low as possible is what most of us now want.

Ha yeah the Evo dtd is in it's own category.