So what is a good "crawl ratio"?

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

Gentlemen,

So after taking my new build out yesterday and crawling over/up some rocks, I noticed that it crawls almost TOO slow. Now being a total newb, I cannot think what is a good crawl ratio. So I decided to look it up with this link: http://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.php . I figured with an automatic 5 speed (W5A580) first gear ratio of 3.59:1, transfer case ratio of 4:1 and differential ratio of 5.38:1, I get a crawl ratio of 77.26:1. I have really no idea whether this is a good crawl ratio or not. I have questions like:

Does the automatic transmission change the crawl ratio? I ask this because I noticed that my RPM's at 2,500 gave me a solution of 3.5 MPH but I am pretty sure it was more like 2 MPH on the trail. I was using a GPS to determine my speed and am not sure if this is a good measurement.

With the 2012 and up current JK's, what is a good crawl ratio? Can you have too high of a crawl ratio?

I am hopeful that this thread can help people when they re-gear to really think about what the JK is doing when it is crawling. Yes, we all hear about how important it is to re-gear for on-road performance, but what about off-road? I mean, that was why I bought a JK. My experience is that on-road performance suffers a bit while going up hill, but really suspect that it is the shear additional weight of the rig after the build is what is causing the lack of uphill power. Other than that, the rig is really fun to drive around and I love how well the ProCal fixed any shift point issues. When I hear about 100:1 and 200:1 crawl ratios, I get worried that maybe there is no real apples to apples comparison. I suspect that we are talking then about actual motor torque and then subjectivity.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Edit: I am running 37 inch Nitto Trail Grapplers, just an FYI.

swampdog · Jun 6, 2016

Great thread and glad you are giving an honest review of your setup. I'm looking forward to the responses.

wayoflife · Jun 6, 2016

NevadaZielmeister said:
So after taking my new build out yesterday and crawling over/up some rocks, I noticed that it crawls almost TOO slow.

Please define "TOO slow". I essentially run the exact same setup on Rubicat - 3.6L with auto and 5.38 gears and I can honestly say I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

highoctane · Jun 6, 2016

Once you get into some big rocks, on a climb, in a tight area, you'll love the low crawl ratio. It's perfectly normal to be able to walk faster than your jeep crawls at idle in first gear and 4 low.

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

wayoflife said:
Please define "TOO slow". I essentially run the exact same setup on Rubicat - 3.6L with auto and 5.38 gears and I can honestly say I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

I guess maybe I have not tackled enough obstacles that really required that type of crawl ratio. When I mean "too slow" I mean so slow that seems almost useless. I will say that I really liked that 1st gear when I was descending down a steep obstacle since I never had to apply the brakes at all.

My other initial concern over too low of a crawl ratio was the concept of picking the crawl ratio to best suit the given torque curve. However, when I look at the torque curve for the 3.6L, I find that it gets pretty flat at 2,000 RPM and up.

I am hoping on getting a chance to really use this thing, but understand that experience is needed before I get all extreme. Just need more time behind the wheel and wanted to make sure I was not doing anything wrong.

Exodus 4x4 · Jun 6, 2016

Isn't that why you went to all the trouble of changing everything out? I wouldn't worry too much about, you haven't wandered into uncharted territory.

cozdude · Jun 6, 2016

As mentioned you want it to be slow. I think I can walk next to knuckles if I put him in 4lo and1

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

Granite_head said:
Isn't that why you went to all the trouble of changing everything out? I wouldn't worry too much about, you haven't wandered into uncharted territory.

Tell that to the US Forest Service employee who "discussed" with me about being off the marked trails while in the National Forest. Even though the trail was not marked where we all were. 1 day out with my new rig and already in trouble with "the man."

Exodus 4x4 · Jun 6, 2016

NevadaZielmeister said:
Tell that to the US Forest Service employee who "discussed" with me about being off the marked trails while in the National Forest. Even though the trail was not marked where we all were. 1 day out with my new rig and already in trouble with "the man."

I wouldn't think you'd be in 4L on a forest road, but I could be wrong. When you get into some rocks you feel better about what you've done.

wayoflife · Jun 6, 2016

NevadaZielmeister said:
I guess maybe I have not tackled enough obstacles that really required that type of crawl ratio. When I mean "too slow" I mean so slow that seems almost useless. I will say that I really liked that 1st gear when I was descending down a steep obstacle since I never had to apply the brakes at all.

My other initial concern over too low of a crawl ratio was the concept of picking the crawl ratio to best suit the given torque curve. However, when I look at the torque curve for the 3.6L, I find that it gets pretty flat at 2,000 RPM and up.

I am hoping on getting a chance to really use this thing, but understand that experience is needed before I get all extreme. Just need more time behind the wheel and wanted to make sure I was not doing anything wrong.

Honestly, I think you're way over thinking things and by the sound of it, there may not have even been a reason for you to be in 4LO.

NevadaZielmeister said:
Tell that to the US Forest Service employee who "discussed" with me about being off the marked trails while in the National Forest. Even though the trail was not marked where we all were. 1 day out with my new rig and already in trouble with "the man."

If you don't mind me asking, where exactly were you guys? Once you're on the Kalifornia side of the forest, it's usually pretty clear where you should and shouldn't be.

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

Granite_head said:
I wouldn't think you'd be in 4L on a forest road, but I could be wrong. When you get into some rocks you feel better about what you've done.

I thought this section deserved it, but that is just me:

Now I am not saying this is extreme or even moderate by any means, but here in the Sierra Nevada mountains, we have a ton of forest service roads that look like this that would, in my opinion, require 4Lo.

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

NevadaZielmeister said:
I guess maybe I have not tackled enough obstacles that really required that type of crawl ratio. When I mean "too slow" I mean so slow that seems almost useless. I will say that I really liked that 1st gear when I was descending down a steep obstacle since I never had to apply the brakes at all.

My other initial concern over too low of a crawl ratio was the concept of picking the crawl ratio to best suit the given torque curve. However, when I look at the torque curve for the 3.6L, I find that it gets pretty flat at 2,000 RPM and up.

I am hoping on getting a chance to really use this thing, but understand that experience is needed before I get all extreme. Just need more time behind the wheel and wanted to make sure I was not doing anything wrong.

NevadaZielmeister said:
Tell that to the US Forest Service employee who "discussed" with me about being off the marked trails while in the National Forest. Even though the trail was not marked where we all were. 1 day out with my new rig and already in trouble with "the man."

wayoflife said:
Honestly, I think you're way over thinking things and by the sound of it, there may not have even been a reason for you to be in 4LO.

If you don't mind me asking, where exactly were you guys? Once you're on the Kalifornia side of the forest, it's usually pretty clear where you should and shouldn't be.

I think that you are right about overthinking it. I sometimes make that mistake.

I was in the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, on the west side of Peavine, just off Long Valley Road. We were visiting the Crystal Mines where you can grab a bunch of crystals and quartz (but they limit you to a 5 gallon bucket per person per day). We were just approaching the main pile of crystal when we saw a cool trail off to the left. It was unmarked and looked well travelled, so we went up it to a ledge, then another ledge, which all led to the same place at the base of the pile. As it turned out, the signs and the k-rails were not maintained and were due to be renewed in a couple of weeks. So really, we had no idea where was the "main" road and the trail we were on. I believe that we were actually on the Nevada side, but I could be mistaken since I do not have a map in front of me. The trails were pretty well marked and it was probably my lack of experience to know that without a trail marker, probably should not have been going up that trail, which the forest service guy explained.

wayoflife · Jun 6, 2016

NevadaZielmeister said:
I think that you are right about overthinking it. I sometimes make that mistake.

The whole point of 4LO is to "crawl" really slow so that your tires can maintain traction where it would otherwise spin and slip if it rotated too fast. 4LO 1st gear is definitely going to be LOWER than 5th gear and you should shift into the gear you need to give you what you're needing for the obstacle at hand.

I was in the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest, on the west side of Peavine, just off Long Valley Road. We were visiting the Crystal Mines where you can grab a bunch of crystals and quartz (but they limit you to a 5 gallon bucket per person per day). We were just approaching the main pile of crystal when we saw a cool trail off to the left. It was unmarked and looked well travelled, so we went up it to a ledge, then another ledge, which all led to the same place at the base of the pile. As it turned out, the signs and the k-rails were not maintained and were due to be renewed in a couple of weeks. So really, we had no idea where was the "main" road and the trail we were on. I believe that we were actually on the Nevada side, but I could be mistaken since I do not have a map in front of me. The trails were pretty well marked and it was probably my lack of experience to know that without a trail marker, probably should not have been going up that trail, which the forest service guy explained.

Got it. Up in a National Forest, pretty much anything that's not marked on a map is off limits. There are plenty of yahoos that tear up the side of mountains and creating new "trails" but they are also the reason why so many of our trails get shut down. It's an easy mistake but up there, it's always better to assume err on the side of caution. In this case, I'd have to say that "the man" was just doing his job. Of course, that's just my opinion.

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

wayoflife said:
Got it. Up in a National Forest, pretty much anything that's not marked on a map is off limits. There are plenty of yahoos that tear up the side of mountains and creating new "trails" but they are also the reason why so many of our trails get shut down. It's an easy mistake but up there, it's always better to assume err on the side of caution. In this case, I'd have to say that "the man" was just doing his job. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Yes, he was very nice about the whole affair. He gave us some old maps that we used later on the trip and we parted ways on good terms. I totally agree regarding being good stewards of our forests. I plan to be even more careful when I'm out there to ensure no damage is made. I noticed that having a good crawl rate is better then "gunning" it like my other partner had to do. I also noticed that the Toyota that was with us would leave holes here and there when it lost traction, so being slightly aired down, lockers and in 4Lo definitely helped preserve the countryside. I suspect I left very few lasting marks on the forest hillsides.

Sharkey · Jun 6, 2016

First - you are waaay overthinking this. I promise you the first time you have to drive down something steep, rocky, and off camber...or stop in that situation, you will be very glad that you have a walking crawl ratio. As one fellow native Nevadan once said to me, "your low/low crawl speed should be slow enough that you can sit in the back seat and drink beer with your buddy for a couple of hours while your Jeep slowly finds its way across the Black Rock desert." (No, I'm not advocating drinking and driving but I think you get the point).

Second - what's the hurry?

If the challenge if difficult enough to require 4-low and lockers, then it is probably difficult enough that you could NOT drive fast anyway.

Third - you are now the owner of one hell of a well built rig. Trust me, it can absolutely out perform you. What you need to do now is get some experience driving it. Try the same path in different gears and different combinations (2wd, 4wd high, 4wd high/low, 4wd low/high, 4wd low/low.) Trial and error is how you learn what works for you and your rig.

Fourth - I'm pretty sure you were in California but I could be wrong. See below.

Screen Shot 2016-06-06 at 3.05.27 PM.png

Screen Shot 2016-06-06 at 3.27.50 PM.jpg

Sharkey · Jun 6, 2016

As an aside...be careful because much of what we can lawfully own, shoot, and keep in the car is not lawful in Kalifornia. While I have never been hassled in that area, I am mindful about the differences on the other side of the border.

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

Sharkey said:
First - you are waaay overthinking this. I promise you the first time you have to drive down something steep, rocky, and off camber...or stop in that situation, you will be very glad that you have a walking crawl ratio. As one fellow native Nevadan once said to me, "your low/low crawl speed should be slow enough that you can sit in the back seat and drink beer with your buddy for a couple of hours while your Jeep slowly finds its way across the Black Rock desert." (No, I'm not advocating drinking and driving but I think you get the point).

Second - what's the hurry? If the challenge if difficult enough to require 4-low and lockers, then it is probably difficult enough that you could NOT drive fast anyway.

Third - you are now the owner of one hell of a well built rig. Trust me, it can absolutely out perform you. What you need to do now is get some experience driving it. Try the same path in different gears and different combinations (2wd, 4wd high, 4wd high/low, 4wd low/high, 4wd low/low.) Trial and error is how you learn what works for you and your rig.

Fourth - I'm pretty sure you were in California but I could be wrong. See below.

View attachment 207030
View attachment 207035

First: Thanks homey, I think we have established my overthinkingness.

Second: I was never in a hurry. I guess I might have been watching others 4 wheel and as they did not have lockers and a much higher crawl ratio, they were using different techniques to clean the obstacle. While my buddies were driving fast and slipping, I was driving slow and not. I could just tell that their experience was much greater than mine.

Third: "it can absolutely out perform you" this times 1,000!! I feel like a 15 year old with a driver's permit driving a Ferrari. I can tell I have so much to learn, which I knew going into it. But it is great to have friends on here to help. I will try doing some obstacles with lockers and without, in 4Hi, 2 wheel drive and so forth. There is just so much to learn with a new rig like this. I feel I have more questions than I ever did in the past. I want to get a shout out to Drew at ORE for his willingness to call him with questions. I plan to call him tomorrow.

Fourth: Yeh, I just grabbed my map and indeed, we were well over the California side. To correlate to your map, it is located right near where it says "Lookout Campground".

And I see that you added a map while I slowly typed. Yes, you got where we were very well.

Thank you gentlemen for all of your help.

NevadaZielmeister · Jun 6, 2016

Sharkey said:
As an aside...be careful because much of what we can lawfully own, shoot, and keep in the car is not lawful in Kalifornia. While I have never been hassled in that area, I am mindful about the differences on the other side of the border.

I already checked into this very carefully and I hear your warning, for sure. Here is what the the law says, CA Penal Code 25610:

25610. (a) Section 25400 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with the provisions listed in Section 16580.

I keep it locked and unloaded, I am good.

Sharkey · Jun 6, 2016

NevadaZielmeister said:
I already checked into this very carefully and I hear your warning, for sure. Here is what the the law says, CA Penal Code 25610:

25610. (a) Section 25400 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with the provisions listed in Section 16580.

I keep it locked and unloaded, I am good.

Same here, well most of the time.

The issue I am worried about is magazine capacity. While I haven't checked the specific code sections, it is my general understanding that possession of a +10 magazine in California is illegal...whether it is loaded or not.

Edit: I just checked and it looks like the prohibition is against importation, assembling, manufacturing, selling, etc.

WJCO · Jun 6, 2016

Sharkey said:
Same here, well most of the time. The issue I am worried about is magazine capacity. While I haven't checked the specific code sections, it is my general understanding that possession of a +10 magazine in California is illegal...whether it is loaded or not.

They just passed that here a couple years ago, but it's not possession of it, it's just buying/selling to the best of my knowledge. Thank God more people are safe now with the new law. There's no way a criminal that wants to kill more than 10 people would ever think of buying a clip that holds more than 10 rounds out of state. :grayno:

If I remember right, in California while traveling in a vehicle, your ammo and gun have to be in locked separate containers, lol. Perfect self-defensive situation right there! Easy to get to if needed in a quick emergency.

EDIT:

Missed this when I quoted Sharkey's post:

NevadaZielmeister said:
I already checked into this very carefully and I hear your warning, for sure. Here is what the the law says, CA Penal Code 25610:

25610. (a) Section 25400 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a
firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with the provisions listed in Section 16580.

I keep it locked and unloaded, I am good.

So what is a good "crawl ratio"?

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