Running 37s on a stock dana 30 axle

CREEPR said:
Kentucky. Please help me understand. I have always understood going slow and not gassing your way over obstacles is the easiest way to protect your axle's innards.
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Yup, what I thought. East of the the Rockies, you guys wheel in off road parks measured in the acres and with a handful of obstacles. West of the Rockies, we have trails measured in miles and are often one continuous obstacle and on different terrain. Of course, this is to say nothing about the wide open deserts that you can bomb across and measure in the hundreds of miles. What you guys have is fun and I'm not trying to knock any of it - things are just different out here.
 
wayoflife said:
Yup, what I thought. East of the the Rockies, you guys wheel in off road parks measured in the acres and with a handful of obstacles. West of the Rockies, we have trails measured in miles and are often one continuous obstacle and on different terrain. Of course, this is to say nothing about the wide open deserts that you can bomb across and measure in the hundreds of miles. What you guys have is fun and I'm not trying to knock any of it - things are just different out here.
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That makes sense. I would love to make it out there with you guys one day. I would have to change my rig around to handle things that you guys have that we don't. Rocks around here have moss and dirt all on them and most of the time the hardest part is avoiding trees. Nothing like those badass videos you put out. I am 15 min from a off-road park that, like you say, is acres not miles. If I break something I can walk home if I had to.
 
CREEPR said:
That makes sense. I would love to make it out there with you guys one day. I would have to change my rig around to handle things that you guys have that we don't. Rocks around here have moss and dirt all on them and most of the time the hardest part is avoiding trees. Nothing like those badass videos you put out. I am 15 min from a off-road park that, like you say, is acres not miles. If I break something I can walk home if I had to.
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It's crazy to think but most of the breaks I have seen have happened due to speed - that is to say, bombing across the desert. It's really hard not to do being that suspension systems are getting so good at offering a smoother ride at faster speeds and when you have long stretches to cover, it's hard not to want to cover it as fast as you feel comfortable to do. That being said, you are right that slowing down would most likely help prevent breaks but, going fast out here is what so many guys and gals are wanting to do being that it's so much fun to do. This is why coil overs are so big out here and why you'll rarely see me recommend them for people east of the rockies.
 
wayoflife said:
It's crazy to think but most of the breaks I have seen have happened due to speed - that is to say, bombing across the desert. It's really hard not to do being that suspension systems are getting so good at offering a smoother ride at faster speeds and when you have long stretches to cover, it's hard not to want to cover it as fast as you feel comfortable to do. That being said, you are right that slowing down would most likely help prevent breaks but, going fast out here is what so many guys and gals are wanting to do being that it's so much fun to do. This is why coil overs are so big out here and why you'll rarely see me recommend them for people east of the rockies.
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Hauling ass in desert was fun until I bent the front axle on my 2 door 😨 lol
 
Again, you crush me with knowledge and experience, thank you.

wayoflife said:
What I'm saying is that it could definitely be less but not likely more. EVO is able to get more due to their proprietary front DTD mounts that angle back and rear EVO lever which actually utilizes only 8" coil overs to achieve 14" of true vertical travel. I should note that they still do this with 4-links too.
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So it is the repositioning of the EVO levers (shocks, right?) that allow for a more efficient shock travel, correct? I just am not seeing it in my mind because I have not been under very many Jeeps to truly understand. Are there reference links? This was the link I was looking at when I chose the RK Long Arm Coil Over:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/

It is very detailed and frankly, I did not understand it all, but I did read this:

A coilover is a clever component designed to package the shock and springs as a single system.
The beauty of a coilover is that it allows us to design for a given frequency, and then easily tune to achieve a desired suspension height.
Coilovers use multiple springs stacked in series, which results in an initial (normally softer) combines wheel rate that transitions at some point in the suspension's travel to a final (normally firmer) main wheel rate. By manipulating tender and main spring rates, we can achieve a soft, compliant ride for the majority of our suspension's travel, and then a much firmer wheel rate in the last 20-40% of compression travel to soak up the big hits without bottoming.

My thoughts followed this and then going Long Arm based on several sources, but mostly wanting a smooth ride. Maybe I am wrong here, but I reference this link really quick now:

http://www.4wd.com/jeep-lift-kits/long-vs-short-arm.aspx

wayoflife said:
I guess I first need to know what you think the RK kit does before I could recommend something that can replicate it. As far as better goes, there's nothing out there that'll perform better than an EVO DTD but of course, it comes at a price.

That being said, there are ways you can ramp up to what Moby has which is a street legal and street comfortable ride. Again, you can build your way to this point without having to buy things twice. You just need to know what your end game will be and work from there.
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Yeh, my question was not a good one because I lack the knowledge and understanding about what the EVO fully does. My only understanding is that Moby is such a bad ass off road machine. I just would like to understand why. I am guessing that would take a college course of some kind?

So if I wanted to obtain the Moby ride, what would I need on my 2016 Rubicon Unlimited 4 door now which I could build on later? What kits would you recommend? (I hope that question makes sense?)

Or maybe written a different way, I would not go from long arm to a short arm, but I might as well go to a long arm and this would allow for the lack of need to change later, right? I mean Moby has a long arm kit. Would it ride the same and handle the desert the same with a short arm (or even mid arm?)?

wayoflife said:
First off, factory length arms are NOT short. TJ arms were short and by comparison, JK factory arms are quite long and quite strong. Second, they don't so much as "absorb" anything but an arm that has a flatter angle will have less of an arc to travel. Long arms will restore the geometry of your control arms back to stock or closer to it ONLY IF you are running a tall lift. Ideally, you want a LOW stance as that will reduce your center of gravity and with 37's, you only really need about 3.5" of lift at most. At this height, you will totally be fine with stock length arms - trust me, I have done it and know plenty of people who still do it.
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I am curious about this. So what you are saying is that the difference in the arms are not great between the stock and the long arm kits. What is the difference? Can this be quantified to discuss the arc difference as a percentage or something?

wayoflife said:
It's all good and I hope I can be of some help. All I can offer is what I know.
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HUGE help Eddie. Thank you for everything.
 
This picture was posted by Cindy not an hour ago in the thread "Wayalife on the go". You can get an idea of evolever setup.

ForumRunner_20150722_223528.jpg
 
NevadaZielmeister said:
So it is the repositioning of the EVO levers (shocks, right?) that allow for a more efficient shock travel, correct? I just am not seeing it in my mind because I have not been under very many Jeeps to truly understand. Are there reference links?
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See the photo that was posted above. The EVO lever utilizes a cantilever system to provide the extreme travel it offers and without having to cut into your tub, having to run wide axles or mounting your coil overs dangerously low to the ground.

This was the link I was looking at when I chose the RK Long Arm Coil Over:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/Part_1/

It is very detailed and frankly, I did not understand it all, but I did read this:

A coilover is a clever component designed to package the shock and springs as a single system.
The beauty of a coilover is that it allows us to design for a given frequency, and then easily tune to achieve a desired suspension height.
Coilovers use multiple springs stacked in series, which results in an initial (normally softer) combines wheel rate that transitions at some point in the suspension's travel to a final (normally firmer) main wheel rate. By manipulating tender and main spring rates, we can achieve a soft, compliant ride for the majority of our suspension's travel, and then a much firmer wheel rate in the last 20-40% of compression travel to soak up the big hits without bottoming.
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That was a great article written back in 2008 and maybe it's just me but I fail to see how that lead you to choose the RK long arm coil over kit.

My thoughts followed this and then going Long Arm based on several sources, but mostly wanting a smooth ride. Maybe I am wrong here, but I reference this link really quick now:

http://www.4wd.com/jeep-lift-kits/long-vs-short-arm.aspx
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Long arms WILL smooth out your ride IF you're Jeep is lifted tall enough to dramatically effect your suspension geometry. Think of a triangle - your control arms are essentially the hypotenuse of that triangle and if you have a lot of lift and a short hypotenuse, it will sit at a steep angle. That being said, an old TJ lower control arm measured about 15-3/4" and really, that's SHORT. For a TJ, long arms were critical to have almost right out of the box. However, a factory JK lower control arm measures about 22-5/8" and that's more than 7-1/4" longer than the TJ! Yes, these are different Jeeps but all we're talking about here are triangles - height, length and hypotenuse. Links like the one above give a general idea of what you need to know but they don't take the time to explain what you're really looking at on your JK. More times that not, what will make or break the smoothness of your JK's ride is the coils you are running - NOT the length of the control arms.

That being said, IF you like the old school 80's sky high lift look and plan on running a kit that'll get you sitting over 4" of lift, long arms are nice to have. However, if you want a functional low center of gravity Jeep that sits more like 3"-3.5" high, I can assure you that long arms are NOT needed for a smooth ride. Of course, if in the future you want them anyway, you can add them in after the fact with a minimal amount of parts that you'd need to replace.

So if I wanted to obtain the Moby ride, what would I need on my 2016 Rubicon Unlimited 4 door now which I could build on later? What kits would you recommend? (I hope that question makes sense?)
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Currently, Moby is sitting on an EVO DTD set at 3.5" of lift, with high clearance EVO long arms and running 40's on a ProRock 60 front and full float ProRock 80 rear. Again, this is where it's at now. If you're only going to run 37's, I would recommend looking into a ProRock 44 front and Trail 60 rear, EVO DTD/EVO lever with coil overs only and if you have the budget for it, long arms too. If in the future you feel the need, you can add bypass shocks to complete the kit. IF you think you'll get up on 40's someday, I would look into a ProRock 60 front and a full float ProRock 80 rear. You will also need to get 1350 drive shafts with this.

Or maybe written a different way, I would not go from long arm to a short arm, but I might as well go to a long arm and this would allow for the lack of need to change later, right? I mean Moby has a long arm kit. Would it ride the same and handle the desert the same with a short arm (or even mid arm?)?
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What you need to understand is that when you go long arm, you need to cut off all your factory brackets off the frame and have all new ones installed in new locations. In other words, everything gets changed out and so if you start off with "factory length" arms and then move over to long arms later, you would only be out a set of adjustable front lowers which you can easily sell. The loss is really minimal. Of course, if you can afford to do it all at once, yeah, I would definitely get the long arms at the same time BUT, not at the sacrifice of axles. Of course, that's just me.

I am curious about this. So what you are saying is that the difference in the arms are not great between the stock and the long arm kits. What is the difference? Can this be quantified to discuss the arc difference as a percentage or something?
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I'm not saying that at all. The difference is about 10" in length. What I'm saying is that depending on how tall you plan on lifting your Jeep, long arms aren't really necessary as the angle of your factory length arms won't be sitting steep enough to matter. Does this make sense?
 
Huge huge help Eddie. Thank you so much. I am going to digest what you said and check out that photo in more detail. I might revisit this thread in the future for reference and also further questions.

My apologies to the OP for conducting the mother of all thread hijacks. Hopefully this is helpful to others looking into Jeep lifts.
 
wayoflife said:
Currently, Moby is sitting on an EVO DTD set at 3.5" of lift, with high clearance EVO long arms and running 40's on a ProRock 60 front and full float ProRock 80 rear. Again, this is where it's at now. If you're only going to run 37's, I would recommend looking into a ProRock 44 front and Trail 60 rear, EVO DTD/EVO lever with coil overs only and if you have the budget for it, long arms too. If in the future you feel the need, you can add bypass shocks to complete the kit. IF you think you'll get up on 40's someday, I would look into a ProRock 60 front and a full float ProRock 80 rear. You will also need to get 1350 drive shafts with this.
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Okay, so I got a chance to research a bit and want to make sure we are speaking the same EVO MFG language. When I go to there website here: http://www.evomfg.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=35_36_37&sort=p.price&order=DESC&page=1

I cannot find the "EVO DTD". I can find the "EVO MFG Double D Suspension JK/JKU at $6,984.98. Is that what you are referring to? I did find the EVO MFG Rear Double Throw Down EVO Lever at $2,408.99. I also found the long arm upgrade kit for $2,694.99. Then the EVO MFG Front Double Throwdown Coilover/Bypass System (Dana 44) at $3,464.99.

So does EVOLever only refer to the rear suspension? Can I get the Double D Suspension and then upgrade with Double Throw Downs Levers later? Or am I looking at this wrong?

Or is this right, from your build sheet (Rubi-Cat) linked here?: http://wayalife.com/content.php?26-our-jeeps

EVO MFG Front Double Throwdown Coilover/Bypass System (Dana 44) JK/JKU (EVO-101-44) = $3,464.99
EVO MFG Rear Double Throwdown EVOLever System (w/coilover and Bypass) JK/JKU (EVO-1008) = $4,938.99
EVO MFG Long Arm Upgrade Kit JK/JKU (EVO-1050) = $2,694.99
EVO MFG Drag Link Flip Kit JK/JKU (EVO-1071) = $329.99
EVO MFG Front Shock Relocation Bracket Kit JK/JKU (EVO-1113B) = $77.00

Total = $11,505.96

Is that right for what you have on Rubi-Cat? or on Moby? What is the difference then with the Double D system? Can this be downgraded temporarily? You mentioned about the bypass system and coil overs?

Again, thank you for the help. I am still listening and learning friend.
 
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What I would recommend is that tomorrow morning, you call this number 714-870-5515 and ask for Drew. Or, you can contact him by PM here drew@offroadevolution. Being that you're seriously considering this kit, he would be able to assist you far better than I could.
 
wayoflife said:
What I would recommend is that tomorrow morning, you call this number 714-870-5515 and ask for Drew. Or, you can contact him by PM here drew@offroadevolution. Being that you're seriously considering this kit, he would be able to assist you far better than I could.
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No Eddie, you have been very helpful.

As requested, and for the benefit of the viewers, here is a synapsis of my discussion with Drew over at Off Road Evolution. I just hope I get the spirit of the conversation correct. I must say he was easy to deal with, very knowledgable and very realistic. Once we discussed my end game, things cleared up quickly. With the game being 37 inch wheels, Dana Prock44 front and Dana Prorock60 rear axles, and my intent to do things mostly once, he agreed with me that the best way to go would be the following:

EVO MFG Front Double Throw Coilover/Bypass System, EVO MFG Rear Double Throwdown EVOLever System, Long Arm Upgrade kit, Drag Link Flip Kit and regearing to 5.13 would be about $18,000 and take about 2 weeks. He explained that with this setup to start out with, we could utilize the stock axles until there is a breakage. He advised that upgrading in the future would not require any significant change to the suspension system already installed, mostly just axle mounting brackets.

We discussed using the stock arms and he advised that the ride is just not the same. He advised that some people were okay with it and the 4 door Rubicons handled the ride better, but was unacceptable for the 2 door Rubicons. I did not understand this but I think I got his point, that with the EVOLever mounting locations, the arms are just not efficient or long enough. (I hope I got that right).

With that new info, getting wheels, bumpers, winch and rocker sliders, we seem to have a build at $25,000. That might not hurt that much, we will see.

So now the question is, it is worth the extra $7,000 to go with the EVO MFG suspension system? And then the real flaming question, is the EVO system better than the Rock Krawler system?

Hope this information helps everyone like it does me. Eddie, thank you for all of your help.

edit: FYI, the email provided in the previous thread was incorrect.
 
Honestly, I don't have experience with either, but based on what I've seen the Evo system go through, that would be my choice. Not to mention I just REALLY like the EvoLever system. That's my two cents for what it's worth.
 
wayoflife said:
Couldn't agree more - Rock Krawler is where it's at! Get it and tell us how awesome it is :yup:
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Wait, what?!?! I thought this whole thread exploded based on your questions of my choice to go Rock Krawler. Are you trying to kill me Eddie?? :eek:

Anyways, so the Rock Krawler is capable? What are you saying big guy? :question:
 
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