MetalCloak GC and Evo Drag Link Flip?

This is what I got from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Bump steer or roll steer is the term for the tendency of the wheel of a car to steer as it moves upwards. It is typically measured in degrees of steer per metre of upwards motion or degrees per foot.

On modern cars the front of the tire moves outwards as the suspension is raised, a process known as the front wheels "toeing out". This gives roll understeer. The rear suspension is usually set up to minimise bump steer, where possible.

Typical values are from two to ten degrees per metre, for the front wheels.

Excessive bump steer increases tire wear and makes the vehicle more difficult to handle on rough roads.

Solid axles generally have zero bump steer, but still have roll steer, in most cases. That is, if the wheels move upwards by the same amount, they tend not to steer.

Roll steer is an important part of the budget used to define a vehicle's understeer, known as a Bundorf analysis.



Sounds like a solid axle doesnt have bump steer form what I'm reading it has roll steer.

This is the difference between the two.

Difference between Bump Steer and Roll Steer

In a bump steer, both wheels rise together. In roll steer, one wheel rises as the other falls. Typically this produces "toe in" on one wheel, and "toe out" on the other, thus producing a steering effect.

Roll steer is usually measured in degrees of toe per degree of roll, but can also be measured in degrees of toe per metre of wheel travel.

im no midas man but your telling me when i hit a bump it is tuning my wheels toward the lowest tire causing roll steer :beer: Ill buy that

wayoflife said:

No, you just states that, and I quote, "most complain of bump-steer when a flip isn't done." Me, I'm still waiting to see some proof of all these people complaining about it.

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When I said "most complain" I never said that these were read complaints.... I was actually referring conversations I have had with actual people that struggled with it. In fact, the first reading I had done on it was to find the article I linked to. There seemed to be a bunch of interesting headers on it an that's where the "hours of reading" came from.

wayoflife said:

Cool - I was under the impression that everything you knew came from hours of reading you've done on Google searches. My mistake and now I'm all ears - I would love to hear all about your first hand experience with bump steer.

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Honestly, you've created an environment where I have no intention of discussing this further. I don't feel the need to prove myself, and there is no need for you to. Everyone here respects your opinion or we wouldn't be here.

wayoflife said:

No offense but, I gotta say, I don't know if I'd ever want to buy a lift kit that you've decided to run especially based on the research you've done.

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I know, you've made your opinions on Metalcloak clear on many threads. My choice actually had little to do with research and more to do with the two Jeeps I rode in that had some of their parts, and the one with a full system. I have admitted on several occasions that I'm not sure I buy all the marketing, but I liked it on the trail and road. So I bought a kit... kinda' on a whim. My reading and research came after the purchase. BTW: no offense taken. To each his own.



On another note: When I say "bump steer" I have been referring to steering or vehicle direction change from road environmental changes. (Hit a bump and the Jeep or any vehicle takes off.) It looks like this is actually "roll steer". Now I know :blush: This said I still maintain my position that this is more prevalent on a 2-door VS a 4. But I accept I may have caused confusion by inappropriately naming it.

jnabird333 said:

When I said "most complain" I never said that these were read complaints.... I was actually referring conversations I have had with actual people that struggled with it.

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Funny how you didn't just come out and say that from the beginning. So please, do tell us who these actual people are and exactly what they've been struggling with. And please, be specific - specs, what they are feeling, etc. and not just generalizations based on things you think you understand. I'm sure it would be helpful to everyone to learn from all the things you've heard.

Honestly, you've created an environment where I have no intention of discussing this further.

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How convenient. :rolleyes2:

I don't feel the need to prove myself

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When you go around making statements pretending like you know what you're talking about, I feel that you should be obligated to at least back them up with some kind of substance.

...and there is no need for you to.

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I think you've mistaken me for someone who would even try.

Everyone here respects your opinion or we wouldn't be here.

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I think you've also mistaken me for someone who would even care whether or not someone respected my "opinion". I share what I've seen and know based on my experiences. People can take it or leave it for all I care.

I know, you've made your opinions on Metalcloak clear on many threads. My choice actually had little to do with research and more to do with the two Jeeps I rode in that had some of their parts, and the one with a full system. I have admitted on several occasions that I'm not sure I buy all the marketing, but I liked it on the trail and road. So I bought a kit... kinda' on a whim. My reading and research came after the purchase. BTW: no offense taken. To each his own.

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Funny how you always "skim" over the details. Or, is it that you purposefully just choose to see what you want to see. I could have sworn that I shared no opinion regarding Metalcloak on this thread and if anything, pointed out how they were RIGHT in recommending against an EVO or synergy drag link flip. But hey, if it helps you to sleep better at night believing what you do, more power to you.

On another note: When I say "bump steer" I have been referring to steering or vehicle direction change from road environmental changes. (Hit a bump and the Jeep or any vehicle takes off.) It looks like this is actually "roll steer". Now I know :blush: This said I still maintain my position that this is more prevalent on a 2-door VS a 4. But I accept I may have caused confusion by inappropriately naming it.

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So, you're now saying that you've actually driven a 2-door and a 4-door with both of them having the exact same amount of lift and felt some kind "direction change from road environmental changes" and with it being more prevalent on the 2-door? Am I getting that right? Because, I'm new to all this and clearly have a lot to learn from the vast amount of experience you have.

Is it a fair statement to say that for the purposes of my original question, what I should be looking for once the install is complete is that my track bar and drag link remain parallel? As long as this is the case, the steering geometry should be fine. And actually then raising the draglink at the axle would then over-correct as Eddie said before.

Also, while I've got you, what difference is there to doing a drag-link flip vs. replacing the pitman arm with a longer unit? Both would seem to accomplish the same thing, so is there any advantage to one or the other? This question is really more for my own understanding.

JK_Dave said:

Is it a fair statement to say that for the purposes of my original question, what I should be looking for once the install is complete is that my track bar and drag link remain parallel?

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Yes you want them to be as close to parallel as possible.

JK_Dave said:

Also, while I've got you, what difference is there to doing a drag-link flip vs. replacing the pitman arm with a longer unit? Both would seem to accomplish the same thing, so is there any advantage to one or the other?.

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You can do a drop pitman arm, but it adds extra stress on the steering box and sector shaft do to the added length of the shaft and leverage it creates. Think of it as holding a long rod in your hand vs a short rod. The longer rod will fatigue you faster. Combine that with the stress of larger tires and offroading and that can cause a catastrophic failure on the trail.

Thanks brother

JK_Dave said:

Is it a fair statement to say that for the purposes of my original question, what I should be looking for once the install is complete is that my track bar and drag link remain parallel? As long as this is the case, the steering geometry should be fine. And actually then raising the draglink at the axle would then over-correct as Eddie said before.

Also, while I've got you, what difference is there to doing a drag-link flip vs. replacing the pitman arm with a longer unit? Both would seem to accomplish the same thing, so is there any advantage to one or the other? This question is really more for my own understanding.

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Also if you did a EVO draglink flip it comes with the bracket to relocate your trackbar.. so it fixes multiple problems.... :beer:

JK_Dave said:

Is it a fair statement to say that for the purposes of my original question, what I should be looking for once the install is complete is that my track bar and drag link remain parallel? As long as this is the case, the steering geometry should be fine. And actually then raising the draglink at the axle would then over-correct as Eddie said before.

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Yes. It is critical to keep both the track bar and drag link parallel to each others and, if at all possible, as parallel to the axle as well. Once you get up into the 3.5" and up range, your track bar and drag link will sit at enough of an angle that a correction to it's geometry will improve handling.

Also, while I've got you, what difference is there to doing a drag-link flip vs. replacing the pitman arm with a longer unit? Both would seem to accomplish the same thing, so is there any advantage to one or the other? This question is really more for my own understanding.

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Yes, you can do a dropped pitman arm and it will effectively correct your drag link geometry but again, it is critical to address your track bar at the same time.

StrizzyChris said:

You can do a drop pitman arm, but it adds extra stress on the steering box and sector shaft do to the added length of the shaft and leverage it creates. Think of it as holding a long rod in your hand vs a short rod. The longer rod will fatigue you faster. Combine that with the stress of larger tires and offroading and that can cause a catastrophic failure on the trail.

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While this may be true in theory, I have not seen it to be the case with the dropped pitman arms I've run even with 40x15.50's. What I don't like about dropped pitman arms is that most are made by the same manufacturer and most of them seem to have sloppy splines allowing for movement where there should be none. While you can get them to work, it takes more effort than it's worth. Besides, a drag link flip is just as easy to install and really, a better solution.

JK1 said:

Also if you did a EVO draglink flip it comes with the bracket to relocate your trackbar.. so it fixes multiple problems.... :beer:

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This is correct and that's why I tend to recommend it.

JK_Dave said:

Is it a fair statement to say that for the purposes of my original question, what I should be looking for once the install is complete is that my track bar and drag link remain parallel? As long as this is the case, the steering geometry should be fine. And actually then raising the draglink at the axle would then over-correct as Eddie said before.

Also, while I've got you, what difference is there to doing a drag-link flip vs. replacing the pitman arm with a longer unit? Both would seem to accomplish the same thing, so is there any advantage to one or the other? This question is really more for my own understanding.

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Not sure if this helps but the way I think of it is that when you steer the draglink pushes or pulls on your steering knuckle. The portion of this force that turns the knuckle (and subsequently the vehicle) is only the part of the force in the horizontal direction so having your draglink as close to horizontal as practically possible is useful for getting the most out of your steering assembly with the least amount of stress on your steering components.

Your trackbar connects the frame to the axle and keeps your axle centered under the vehicle. To do this it resists the force from the draglink on the knuckle along the center of the axle so that you actually turn the knuckle instead of just shifting the frame sideways (think pushing on the front and holding the center in place). If the trackbar and draglink are not parallel then the trackbar will not resist the force from the draglink in the same direction leaving unresolved forces which can cause steering issues. I tried to draw out an exaggerated example below. I am a nerd at heart so that’s how I understand, hope it helps.

View attachment 64601

JK_Dave said:

Couple of questions to throw out there -

1) Anyone with the MetalCloak Game Changer not running a Drag Link flip of some kind? What are your experiences with the steering feel?
2) Anyone with the MC GC kit that did relocate their drag link, what brand did you use? If anyone knows of any interferance issues with any bracketry from the Evo kit, please let me know.

Many thanks

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1. I ran the MC 3.5" with and with out a drag link flip (synergy) and do not feel a difference. I am without right now.

2. I installed synergy and had no issues or interference.

Thanks gentlemen


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