PDA

View Full Version : Cambolt installation



BumblebeeZA
03-19-2015, 02:33 PM
Tonight Im installing my Rubicon Express cambolts.
I have been suffering with DW for about 3-4weeks now and Ive had enough.
Ive checked all joints, bolts alignment balancing etc. As soon as I take the lift out, DW disappears, so we have come to the conclusion it must be caster related.

I ordered cambots (the cheap and "easy way") to get as much of my caster back to normal as possible.
I only have a 2" spacer lift with Fox shocks (I had it at 2.5" but the DW really made me poop my pants).

My current caster angle is 3.5deg.

My question... Does it take long to grind out the slot for the cambolts, I want to do it tonight after work.
I only need to grind the rear side of the front axle holes to push my axle forward so a total of 4 grinding holes.

I was thinking of drilling a pilot hole first then grinding the rest out.
I have one of those die grinders and carbide burrs/bits to do the grinding.

wayoflife
03-19-2015, 02:42 PM
I 100% guarantee you that these stupid cam bolts WILL NOT fix your death wobble. All you will be left with are mounts with slots for holes and once your death wobble kicks in again, it'll loosen up the cam bolts and make things worse. Caster or the lack thereof can only help to "instigate" death wobble - NOT cause it.

ERAUGrad04
03-19-2015, 03:22 PM
^^ 100% agree. You have something going on and cam bolts *might* mask the problem (the DW goes away temporarily), however, it's going to come back. Not having enough caster can cause flighty steering, but not DW. Something is going on and it's not your caster. The low caster might help "trigger" the DW, but it ultimately is not the cause, hence not the fix.

Troubleshooting these issues can be a pain, but stick with it. Are you still running the stock trackbar and are you sure they are torqued to 125ft/lbs? Are bolt holes for the TB ovaled out? How about all of your control arms? Torqued to spec?

BumblebeeZA
03-19-2015, 07:41 PM
I installed my cam bolts tonight (I know you guys said dont do it, but im desperate!)
Retorqued everything test drove and still got death wobble, drove around a corner and hit a small bump and my tyres went MAD left right left right left right! Can actually hear them screeching

Anyway, drove home slowly. removed my steering stabilizer to check it out.
Everyone tells me a steering stabilizer has got nothing to do with DW.
When I took the 1 bolt out, I could now test the resistance, now there is resistance but at certain lengths its got like 3cm of play, its loose loose loose.

Im gonna order a new Fox steering stabilizer and hope for the best.

Last week end I stripped all the steering components(joints) to check for play in the joints, and there is NOTHING, no play anywhere!
My steering wheel has quite some play, but thats coming from the steering box... well I think, I get my wife to turn the wheel and I check for play, now the only play is before the steering box, as soon as the pitman arm turn the wheels turn.

OverlanderJK
03-19-2015, 07:44 PM
I installed my cam bolts tonight (I know you guys said dont do it, but im desperate!)
Retorqued everything test drove and still got death wobble, drove around a corner and hit a small bump and my tyres went MAD left right left right left right! Can actually hear them screeching

Anyway, drove home slowly. removed my steering stabilizer to check it out.
Everyone tells me a steering stabilizer has got nothing to do with DW.
When I took the 1 bolt out, I could now test the resistance, now there is resistance but at certain lengths its got like 3cm of play, its loose loose loose.

Im gonna order a new Fox steering stabilizer and hope for the best.

Last week end I stripped all the steering components(joints) to check for play in the joints, and there is NOTHING, no play anywhere!
My steering wheel has quite some play, but thats coming from the steering box... well I think, I get my wife to turn the wheel and I check for play, now the only play is before the steering box, as soon as the pitman arm turn the wheels turn.

Reading is not a strong point of yours is it?

BumblebeeZA
03-19-2015, 07:47 PM
Reading is not a strong point of yours is it?

lol nope :doh: , but I really needed to try it, I can always weld the holes up.
I have checked everything and Im desperate :(

wayoflife
03-19-2015, 07:51 PM
lol nope :doh: , but I really needed to try it, I can always weld the holes up.
I have checked everything and Im desperate :(

When you say you checked "everything", what's everything and how did you check them?? Instead of throwing money at the problem, I think you should first isolate what the real problem IS. Adding a steering stabilizer is the LAST thing you want to do as it will only MASK the real problem at hand.

So again, DID YOU CHECK your ball joints WITH a dial indicator? Did you check your unit bearings with one too? You CANNOT just move it with your hands and give it a look with your eyes and call it checked.

BumblebeeZA
03-19-2015, 07:56 PM
When you say you checked "everything", what's everything and how did you check them?? Instead of throwing money at the problem, I think you should first isolate what the real problem IS. Adding a steering stabilizer is the LAST thing you want to do as it will only MASK the real problem at hand.

So again, DID YOU CHECK your ball joints WITH a dial indicator? Did you check your unit bearings with one too? You CANNOT just move it with your hands and give it a look with your eyes and call it checked.

I tool the trackbar, drag link and tie rod off.
I removed the joints there around the wheel hub.
Basically everything that has a joint I took it off.

I physically felt for movement, and if anything, there was a 1/4 of a hair of movement withing a joint or 2.
Before my lift, I never has this issue, I felt a slight shimmy for a second when hitting a bump but that was it.

JRied
03-19-2015, 08:05 PM
That sucks to see your going thru that. I was scared of DW when installing my lift because I'm still new to installing parts. Redid all arms, coils, tracbar mount, flipped the drag link, and thankfully no wobble. I did lengthen the lower front control arms to 23" but idk if that saved me anything or not

wayoflife
03-19-2015, 08:50 PM
I tool the trackbar, drag link and tie rod off.
I removed the joints there around the wheel hub.
Basically everything that has a joint I took it off.

I physically felt for movement, and if anything, there was a 1/4 of a hair of movement withing a joint or 2.
Before my lift, I never has this issue, I felt a slight shimmy for a second when hitting a bump but that was it.

To be clear, you DID replace your ball joints? These are the joints that connect your knuckles to you axle end forgings or "C"? Also, you did NOT replace your unit bearings or check anything with a dial indicator as I said you NEED to do?

Sharkey
03-19-2015, 08:58 PM
Seriously OP, stop, take a deep breath, and listen to the advice you are being given before you waste a lot of time and money hiding what is causing your issue. It's obviously too late for you to listen about the cam bolts (trust us, you will be back complaining about them sooner rather than latter but such is life), but a steering stabilizer is going to do nothing to solve the problem and will potentially make the problem worse because it could hide what is really happening with your front end.

CJW
03-19-2015, 09:13 PM
I installed my cam bolts tonight (I know you guys said dont do it, but im desperate!)
Retorqued everything test drove and still got death wobble, drove around a corner and hit a small bump and my tyres went MAD left right left right left right! Can actually hear them screeching

Anyway, drove home slowly. removed my steering stabilizer to check it out.
Everyone tells me a steering stabilizer has got nothing to do with DW.
When I took the 1 bolt out, I could now test the resistance, now there is resistance but at certain lengths its got like 3cm of play, its loose loose loose.

Im gonna order a new Fox steering stabilizer and hope for the best.

Last week end I stripped all the steering components(joints) to check for play in the joints, and there is NOTHING, no play anywhere!
My steering wheel has quite some play, but thats coming from the steering box... well I think, I get my wife to turn the wheel and I check for play, now the only play is before the steering box, as soon as the pitman arm turn the wheels turn.

Not saying this is the only problem your jeep is having but, if you found an issue with your steering box why aren't you focusing on that? Again, not that this is your main issue but I would work on the broken parts first.

Jk909
03-19-2015, 09:15 PM
I don't get why some people experience this problem and others don't. I have a 3" lift without adjustable control arms and mine handles great. I'll eventually order them but I'm in no rush

JKbrick
03-20-2015, 12:38 AM
I don't get why some people experience this problem and others don't. I have a 3" lift without adjustable control arms and mine handles great. I'll eventually order them but I'm in no rush

Probably because caster does not cause death wobble I don't think. I have 3.5" of lift with a steering flip kit and stock arms and have never had an issue either. Just a touch flighty. I recently purchased Currie arms from Northridge because I know I need them to be correct.

wayoflife
03-20-2015, 01:28 AM
I don't get why some people experience this problem and others don't. I have a 3" lift without adjustable control arms and mine handles great. I'll eventually order them but I'm in no rush

EVERYONE with a solid front axle regardless of vehicle make is prone to get death wobble IF you have loose or worn out suspension/steering components. It's just the nature of the beast and even stock vehicles can get it. Running bigger tires and wheels with less back spacing will speed up the wear of your components. Installing a lift and not tightening your bolts to the proper torque spec will lead to death wobble as well.

BumblebeeZA
03-20-2015, 06:42 AM
Thanks guys!

Ok just to get everyone on the same page and how I got to where I am re the DW.

I never had it before the lift, I felt a sliiiiggghhht shimmy going over a bump and that was it.
I then got a 2.5" spacer lift (spacers only, no other bits and pieces)
I installed the spacers and the DW started.

I took them out and no more DW, I then machined them down 20% to get a 2" lift.
DW wobble gone only the slight shimmy as before the lift.
Day 3 and DW came back.

I then got FOX performance 2.0 shocks 1.5"-3.5" lift
DW wobble gone only the slight shimmy as before the lift.
Day 3 and DW came back.

I now installed the Cambolts, and it has help nothing.

Last night I checked my steering stabilizer and noticed it was shot, it has 3cm of play in it.
Now I know you say the steering stabilizer has nothing to do with DW, but Im sure it will certainly help getting a new one in my case.
I will be sending my Jeep in for another check, I just dont trust our dealers here in South Africa, and dont feel comfortable leaving it with the "Jeep specialists" either.

I had 255/75R17 GY Wrangler AT tyres on, I took them off and put 245/75R17 GY Wrangler AT tyres on on to see if that will help, and no it never helped.
My DW is most prone when going around a corner over any size bumps and almost any speed above 50km/h (31mph).
This is where I noticed the SS has the most play too, when extending the stabilizer in or out it has play at a certain length, either way.

My steering box, I dont think is worn out, the play I have seems normal reference to other pre 2012 models.
My Jeep is a 2008 JKUR, 76 000km's (47 000 Miles)

I deflated my front tyres down from 2.4 bar to 2.2bar this morning to hopefully dampen the DW a bit. I drove too slow to work this morning to NOT trigger DW and will drive slow back home tonight, DW is just making me change my underwear to much now :cheesy:

olram30
03-20-2015, 07:18 AM
You were told can bolts would do nothing, you've been told your steering stabilizer would do nothing. Why you're so persistent on believing that the ss is going to fix anything is amazing.
You have worn out and, or lose parts on your jeep. Bottom line..
Are you using a torque wrench?
Have you checked ball joints, tie rod end, track bar bushings, hubs?
There are technical things like scrub angle and kpi, but I'm not going to fill your brain with this.
You've been given great advice on how to fix your jeep, but you're not listening. I really wish I or other members could help you, but we can't if you don't listen. Good luck fixing this. I wish you luck.

BumblebeeZA
03-20-2015, 07:30 AM
You were told can bolts would do nothing, you've been told your steering stabilizer would do nothing. Why you're so persistent on believing that the ss is going to fix anything is amazing.
You have worn out and, or lose parts on your jeep. Bottom line..
Are you using a torque wrench?
Have you checked ball joints, tie rod end, track bar bushings, hubs?
There are technical things like scrub angle and kpi, but I'm not going to fill your brain with this.
You've been given great advice on how to fix your jeep, but you're not listening. I really wish I or other members could help you, but we can't if you don't listen. Good luck fixing this. I wish you luck.


I hear you.
I installed the cam bolts as that is what the "Jeep Specialist" said I must do first before he want to tackle the rest.
I did it and never helped, trust me, last night I was fighting real hard not to install them.

If I could ship my Jeep to you guys to sort out, Id do it, as I trust you guys know what you doing.
Here, the guys wont touch it until you've done what they've asked first.

Im not saying that the steering stabilizer is going to fix it, Im just saying it is shot, and needs replacement.
Im sending my Jeep in on Monday to get all the joints professionally checked as recommended here.

I am using a torque wrench yes.

Lower control arms, 125ft lbs
Trackbar, 125 ft lbs

HighwayTrout
03-20-2015, 09:14 AM
Why on earth do people think a steering stabilizer will fix death wobble?

I own three vehicles with solid front axles. My JK being the only one of the three that has a SS. Only because it came with one from the factory. They are NOT a necessary part to help align or prevent lateral movement!
Guess what is though.. A track bar. Hmmmm


OP needs to follow the advice that was given.

BumblebeeZA
03-20-2015, 09:45 AM
Why on earth do people think a steering stabilizer will fix death wobble?

I own three vehicles with solid front axles. My JK being the only one of the three that has a SS. Only because it came with one from the factory. They are NOT a necessary part to help align or prevent lateral movement!
Guess what is though.. A track bar. Hmmmm


OP needs to follow the advice that was given.


Agreed, Ill take a deep breath and start over :blush:

Tonight, Ill check my track bar again.
Then next week Im getting the joints and bearings checked professionally.

kgw350
03-20-2015, 12:44 PM
Have someone get in the jeep you crawl underneath have them turn the wheel back and forth with the engine off until you find the problem. Like everyone has been saying there is something lose.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using WAYALIFE mobile app

OverlanderJK
03-20-2015, 01:36 PM
Thanks guys!

Ok just to get everyone on the same page and how I got to where I am re the DW.

I never had it before the lift, I felt a sliiiiggghhht shimmy going over a bump and that was it.
I then got a 2.5" spacer lift (spacers only, no other bits and pieces)
I installed the spacers and the DW started.

I took them out and no more DW, I then machined them down 20% to get a 2" lift.
DW wobble gone only the slight shimmy as before the lift.
Day 3 and DW came back.

I then got FOX performance 2.0 shocks 1.5"-3.5" lift
DW wobble gone only the slight shimmy as before the lift.
Day 3 and DW came back.

I now installed the Cambolts, and it has help nothing.

Last night I checked my steering stabilizer and noticed it was shot, it has 3cm of play in it.
Now I know you say the steering stabilizer has nothing to do with DW, but Im sure it will certainly help getting a new one in my case.
I will be sending my Jeep in for another check, I just dont trust our dealers here in South Africa, and dont feel comfortable leaving it with the "Jeep specialists" either.

I had 255/75R17 GY Wrangler AT tyres on, I took them off and put 245/75R17 GY Wrangler AT tyres on on to see if that will help, and no it never helped.
My DW is most prone when going around a corner over any size bumps and almost any speed above 50km/h (31mph).
This is where I noticed the SS has the most play too, when extending the stabilizer in or out it has play at a certain length, either way.

My steering box, I dont think is worn out, the play I have seems normal reference to other pre 2012 models.
My Jeep is a 2008 JKUR, 76 000km's (47 000 Miles)

I deflated my front tyres down from 2.4 bar to 2.2bar this morning to hopefully dampen the DW a bit. I drove too slow to work this morning to NOT trigger DW and will drive slow back home tonight, DW is just making me change my underwear to much now :cheesy:

You need to READ the death wobble thread on here for the possible causes and stop believing the bullshit that people are telling you. We all told you that cam bolts would do nothing and you did it anyway. Now we are telling you the stabilizer will do nothing and you are still going to do it. Read what is written here, let the words bounce around in your skull a little bit, then read the death wobble thread and figure out what the real issue is.

BumblebeeZA
03-20-2015, 05:08 PM
1stly Id like to apologize for for my ignorance :doh:

I climbed under my Jeep, had my wife turn the steering, I see about 3mm play in the tack bar rubber, NOT THE BOLT, but the rubber.
The play is only on the one rubber on the driver side (Im in South Africa) so its the right side.

I do apologize and really guys, thanks for all the input, Ill be sorting this out in the week ahead.

Jk909
03-20-2015, 08:01 PM
EVERYONE with a solid front axle regardless of vehicle make is prone to get death wobble IF you have loose or worn out suspension/steering components. It's just the nature of the beast and even stock vehicles can get it. Running bigger tires and wheels with less back spacing will speed up the wear of your components. Installing a lift and not tightening your bolts to the proper torque spec will lead to death wobble as well.

That's about the best explanation I've heard. Thanks for clarifying 👍

BumblebeeZA
03-20-2015, 08:21 PM
Ok guys, you win, Im busy uploading the video to youtube re the track bar bushing.
Once again, I really apologize for being so ignorant.

Its must be track bar related, there is quite a lot of play and I see the whole axle moving.
You will see on the video when I upload it and post it here (slow internet in South Africa :doh:

I would like your opinions on it too though when you see it.
And trust me, this time I WILL listen.

I did this before I asked my wife to turn the wheel for me to see any play anywhere.
Again I loosened all the control arms and track bar, shook my Jeep and retorqued the bolts.
Upper 102 NM and lower + Track bar 169 NM, so this should be ok now too.

BumblebeeZA
03-20-2015, 09:58 PM
Ok guys, here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fblrYu_yi6I

OverlanderJK
03-21-2015, 02:58 AM
That would be your issue. As was stated way back in like the second post.

doubletapdaddy
03-21-2015, 03:15 AM
Ok guys, here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fblrYu_yi6I

Wow... Well there you go!
I can definitely understand all your stress, and with everybody giving you the business (even though much of it is deserved) you been taking it in stride. Cheers to finally getting it sorted out.

jeeeep
03-21-2015, 11:27 AM
sometimes you just have to get a visual on things to find the problem. As you found out, simply checking torque doesn't mean it's tight.

looks like that bushing has lost some of it's girth, but as mentioned many times...well, you know lol

Good to see you taking it all in stride and good to see someone admit they panicked and made all the wrong decisions, it happens. I bet you won't panic next time!

Cheers :beer:

Canvas JK
03-21-2015, 12:55 PM
Ok guys, you win, Im busy uploading the video to youtube re the track bar bushing.
Once again, I really apologize for being so ignorant.

Its must be track bar related, there is quite a lot of play and I see the whole axle moving.
You will see on the video when I upload it and post it here (slow internet in South Africa :doh:

I would like your opinions on it too though when you see it.
And trust me, this time I WILL listen.

I did this before I asked my wife to turn the wheel for me to see any play anywhere.
Again I loosened all the control arms and track bar, shook my Jeep and retorqued the bolts.
Upper 102 NM and lower + Track bar 169 NM, so this should be ok now too.

Glad you found the problem. I have found that at times slowing down and stepping away from the project for awhile helps me refocus on the problem better.


That would be your issue. As was stated way back in like the second post.

Some have different ways of learning.

BumblebeeZA
03-21-2015, 05:39 PM
You beauties have cured my DW!!!!
I F*@king LOVE you all!!!!!!! :eek: :D :thumb:

Ok well its 90% cured, I still get a slight shimmy now when going over a bump, but I tested and never experienced the DW!
I will monitor it for the next couple of days while I wait for parts.

What I did for now is put some M24 washes in, stacked to fill the gaps.
The one end I just just couldnt fit a washer in, so there is like 1mm of play and think this is causing the shimmy the other side is rock solid steady.

I swear a oath to listen and believe you guys from now on.
Once again, please forgive my ignorance, but as mentioned by others as well, I was in a panic.

Sharkey
03-21-2015, 06:10 PM
Good to hear.

Nobody is mad at you. We just wanted you to actually listen to the advice being given to you.

OverlanderJK
03-22-2015, 01:57 AM
You beauties have cured my DW!!!!
I F*@king LOVE you all!!!!!!! :eek: :D :thumb:

Ok well its 90% cured, I still get a slight shimmy now when going over a bump, but I tested and never experienced the DW!
I will monitor it for the next couple of days while I wait for parts.

What I did for now is put some M24 washes in, stacked to fill the gaps.
The one end I just just couldnt fit a washer in, so there is like 1mm of play and think this is causing the shimmy the other side is rock solid steady.

I swear a oath to listen and believe you guys from now on.
Once again, please forgive my ignorance, but as mentioned by others as well, I was in a panic.

Buy a new track bar and your shimmy will probably go away.

Manvan
03-22-2015, 03:15 AM
Are the track bar ends rebuildable? I mean, can the bushings be replaced?

OverlanderJK
03-22-2015, 03:17 AM
Are the track bar ends rebuildable? I mean, can the bushings be replaced?

No not rebuildable. You can press the bushing out but I'm not sure if anyone sells just the bushing.

Manvan
03-22-2015, 11:53 AM
Just looked. Energy Suspension, Prothane, Rubicon Express, all sell replacement bushings on eBay for about $30-$35.

Sharkey
03-23-2015, 04:02 AM
Just looked. Energy Suspension, Prothane, Rubicon Express, all sell replacement bushings on eBay for about $30-$35.

Urethane bushings are great if you love that cheap motel bed squeaking sound.

MTG
03-23-2015, 04:15 AM
Urethane bushings are great if you love that cheap motel bed squeaking sound.

Hawt. :yup:

...

Manvan
03-23-2015, 05:01 PM
What are the options besides replacing with stock? Replacement bushings and aftermarket track bars are both going to have urethane bushings correct?

BumblebeeZA
03-23-2015, 05:39 PM
Ok guys, once again a HUGE thanks, officially my DW is GONE!

I will post my solution and video soon.
I will try upload it tonight, otherwise tomorrow.

I basically put M24 washers on either side of the bushes on both ends of the track bar.
This made the fitting snug and there is no more movement.

I tested without the steering damper and got a slight shimmy when hitting a bump but almost unnoticeable.
The local importer sent me his old stock steering stabilizer for free as mine is busted and useless.

I install it this evening and my DW is officially non existent.
Thanks again for all the help, this forum rocks! :rock:

BumblebeeZA
03-23-2015, 05:56 PM
Here's the video with the washers in and demonstrating the "no play".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LuuP7DEiTI

Here's the before on the one end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fblrYu_yi6I

Sharkey
03-23-2015, 06:01 PM
What are the options besides replacing with stock? Replacement bushings and aftermarket track bars are both going to have urethane bushings correct?

I would replace with a stock bar.