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Thread: HELLO : An Introduction to MoTech and LS Swaps

  1. #11
    Guy with a Red 2-Door cozdude's Avatar
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    Thanks for the detailed background! Looking forward to learning more about you guys and the swaps
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  2. #12
    Been Around the Block kyle521's Avatar
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    Ive actually had a question about your swaps,
    Say someone wanted to do an ls swap but wanted stay on small budget in the beginning, if you swap in a 6.0 ls, and then down the road want to upgrade to the 6.2 truck motor ls, would there need to be significant changes to the harness that you supply?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benito View Post
    You are definitely passionate about what you do! I see a lot of favor to the 6l80 Auto transmission, do you guys offer a standard option and if not how do you go about converting a standard to auto with the engine swap? Does an automatic shifter have to be bought from Chrysler?
    Yes we do a lot of manual to auto swaps. For 2007-10 JK's you need a new main center console, sled(metal plate under shifter), automatic shifter assembly, automatic brake pedal(no need for a new pin or clip), key interlock cable and shifter cable. On the 11+ JK's it's very similar but there are more console pieces to get.

    Our MoTech module handles the manual to auto signals so you will have proper neutral safety, reverse lights and ESP modes. One nice thing about the MT module is it is fully programmable so we can run a 12' shifter in a 07'-11' JK if you want Bumpshift.

    One thing I will mention on the manual to auto swap is you will not have the PRNDL display on the cluster. On the early JK's the PRNDL is driven off the C4 connector of the NGC4 PCM, the manual NGC4 does not have this connector and the harness does not support it either. No big deal though the PRNDL on the shifter works fine, My wife has been driving a manual to auto swap for many years now.

  4. #14
    Administrator wayoflife's Avatar
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    I should note that Moby was a manual and we're now running a 6L80 automatic transmission. As mentioned, everything works great and the only thing we don't have is a PRNDL light up on the dash. No big deal being that you can see where you're at by looking at the shifter.

  5. #15
    Nothing but a Thing 2Cross's Avatar
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  6. #16
    Been Around the Block JEEPnGEO's Avatar
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    Welcome,

    If I get enough scratch together to drop an LS in my Jeep then I will head your way. That has always been a head scratcher for me to think about. I am one of those who like all the lights and knobs to work. BTW... You wouldn't happen to have an LS sitting around would you...
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardsurfer View Post
    Please ramble more. :-) that's good stuff. What's the difference with Gen III and gen V? Is that a different version of your swap kit, or are they different motors entirely?
    We no longer support the Gen III engines, mainly because they are not emissions compliant; in addition the Gen IV engines added many desirable features.

    The Gen IV engines added can driven transmission support; this means you can run the 6l80 transmission, you cannot run the 6l80 with a Gen III engine. The Gen III controller is a PCM which means it controls the engine and transmission, this works well with the old 4 speeds like the 4l65 but does lead to a lot of additional wires for the IMS, PRNDL, solenoids, etc. The can transmissions have the TCM built into the valve body making the wiring very simple, bascially can in and out, brake signal and power and ground. Can transmissions have proven very reliable and strong.

    Gen IV and V operating systems use a separate TCM and ECM, they are not PCM's like with the Gen III powertrains. If you were to run a Gen IV engine with a non can transmission like a 4l65 you would need to add a T42 TCM to the network. The T42 would talk to the ECM over the can bus and control the transmission like in the old days.

    IMO the Gen III engines are not worth running in a JK, they are good engines just old technology. The Gen III engines are close in price to the Gen IV engines now; in 2008 Gen IV engines were rare and expensive, but now the General built millions of them so they are at rock bottom prices.

    Some differences between the Gen III and Gen IV series LS engines:

    Gen III does not support the 6 speed automatic
    Gen IV added VVT on many engines
    Gen IV added DOD/AFM on many engines-4cly mode
    Gen IV has a 58x crank trigger wheel vs the Gen III 24. This allows more precise fuel and spark management
    Gen IV engines use ultra fast O2 and knock sensors for better fuel and spark control

    If you look at the Gen III engine performance calibration it is about 200kb, the Gen IV ECM alone is 2MB showing the magnitude difference in control. The Gen III engines used fuel tables with 0-256 block cells like we did since the 1980's. With the Gen IV engines it became clear more control was required so they did away with the old fuel tables and went with a coefficient based fuel strategy. This means dozens of coefficients are multiplied many times a second to determine fuel and spark delivery.

    In the old days you would have a fuel table then a modifier. So if you were in a certain block cell and IAT rose, or you put it in 4WD the cell number would be modified. By going to a coefficient based virtual table dozens of variables can be taken into account with minimal guessing. GM is really at the forefront of this technology.

    For example GM uses a cold emissions start up mode on Gen IV engines. Using ultra fast O2 sensors your Gen IV can be in closed loop with the O2's switching in under 10seconds. GM went to an expanded ECT scale under 100 degrees F for precise cold start emissions. The coolant temp signal is divided into two scales, one for below 100 degrees F and the other above. This posed programming challenges to detect the switch point since it runs off internal timers.

    Like the Gen III to the Gen IV engines the Gen V engines are evolutionary, not revolutionary. Gen V engines add contentious VVT, this means the cam is not just parked and open, it can be phased wherever it is commanded; this allows more power and efficiency. most importantly gen V engines add Direct Injection. DI allows higher compression which means higher cylinder pressures, higher cylinder pressures mean more power and efficiency. The key is injecting the fuel directly into the chamber rather than behind the valve, this allows better combustion. Gen V engines also stepped up the AFM or 4 cylinder mode. Running in 4 cylinder mode reduces pumping losses but can pose some issues. Noise and vibration has always been a problem with multiple displacement engines all the way back to the Cadillac 4-6-8 engine. The Gen V engine run a new hydraulic motor mount we are gearing up for, it is designed to handle the additional vibrations. Modern AFM engines control the throttle for you so you don't have to step on the gas when you go from a 8 to a 4. Also the ECM drops and brings in cylinders one at a time so the trnasition is not abrupt. Overall AFM can help mpg a little but it won't help a heavy JK too much because it only operates under a light load.

  8. #18
    Addict Ddays's Avatar
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    What an education. Thanks for taking the time to do so. Man how much can you get selling plasma these days? I'm drooling at this...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJK View Post
    Ditto on the standard transmission question. What are your options for an 07 jk with the 6 speed manual? Do you have a kit for that or the T-56 manual.
    With a 5.3 engine we can support the stock JK NSG370 6 speed manual transmission, that's about all it can handle.

    GM did not offer the gen IV V8 trucks with manual transmissions so we do not support OE cruise control with the manual transmission. We do offer an aftermarket CC which works OK.

    On larger engines we can offer a NVG 4500 or a custom Tremec 4WD manual, both add to the cost of the build.

    Personally I like the 6l80 with the manual mode. The 6l80 is low friction, low heat, 4:1 first gear and .6 OD. GM rates the 6l80 the similar to a manuals in MPG. The 6l80 has RPM match shifting so when it shifts between gears it is very smooth and keeps wheel speed constant. So if you were climbing a rock and went from 1st to 2cd you would maintain constant wheel speed with no lurch since the TCM anticipates the shift and the ECM blips the throttle for you. It is actually the BCM that controls the shift.

    The 6l80 is also fully programmable, we are working on 2cd and 3rd gear launches and more.

  10. #20
    Addict jesse3638's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOTECH View Post
    We no longer support the Gen III engines, mainly because they are not emissions compliant; in addition the Gen IV engines added many desirable features.

    The Gen IV engines added can driven transmission support; this means you can run the 6l80 transmission, you cannot run the 6l80 with a Gen III engine. The Gen III controller is a PCM which means it controls the engine and transmission, this works well with the old 4 speeds like the 4l65 but does lead to a lot of additional wires for the IMS, PRNDL, solenoids, etc. The can transmissions have the TCM built into the valve body making the wiring very simple, bascially can in and out, brake signal and power and ground. Can transmissions have proven very reliable and strong.

    Gen IV and V operating systems use a separate TCM and ECM, they are not PCM's like with the Gen III powertrains. If you were to run a Gen IV engine with a non can transmission like a 4l65 you would need to add a T42 TCM to the network. The T42 would talk to the ECM over the can bus and control the transmission like in the old days.

    IMO the Gen III engines are not worth running in a JK, they are good engines just old technology. The Gen III engines are close in price to the Gen IV engines now; in 2008 Gen IV engines were rare and expensive, but now the General built millions of them so they are at rock bottom prices.

    Some differences between the Gen III and Gen IV series LS engines:

    Gen III does not support the 6 speed automatic
    Gen IV added VVT on many engines
    Gen IV added DOD/AFM on many engines-4cly mode
    Gen IV has a 58x crank trigger wheel vs the Gen III 24. This allows more precise fuel and spark management
    Gen IV engines use ultra fast O2 and knock sensors for better fuel and spark control

    If you look at the Gen III engine performance calibration it is about 200kb, the Gen IV ECM alone is 2MB showing the magnitude difference in control. The Gen III engines used fuel tables with 0-256 block cells like we did since the 1980's. With the Gen IV engines it became clear more control was required so they did away with the old fuel tables and went with a coefficient based fuel strategy. This means dozens of coefficients are multiplied many times a second to determine fuel and spark delivery.

    In the old days you would have a fuel table then a modifier. So if you were in a certain block cell and IAT rose, or you put it in 4WD the cell number would be modified. By going to a coefficient based virtual table dozens of variables can be taken into account with minimal guessing. GM is really at the forefront of this technology.

    For example GM uses a cold emissions start up mode on Gen IV engines. Using ultra fast O2 sensors your Gen IV can be in closed loop with the O2's switching in under 10seconds. GM went to an expanded ECT scale under 100 degrees F for precise cold start emissions. The coolant temp signal is divided into two scales, one for below 100 degrees F and the other above. This posed programming challenges to detect the switch point since it runs off internal timers.

    Like the Gen III to the Gen IV engines the Gen V engines are evolutionary, not revolutionary. Gen V engines add contentious VVT, this means the cam is not just parked and open, it can be phased wherever it is commanded; this allows more power and efficiency. most importantly gen V engines add Direct Injection. DI allows higher compression which means higher cylinder pressures, higher cylinder pressures mean more power and efficiency. The key is injecting the fuel directly into the chamber rather than behind the valve, this allows better combustion. Gen V engines also stepped up the AFM or 4 cylinder mode. Running in 4 cylinder mode reduces pumping losses but can pose some issues. Noise and vibration has always been a problem with multiple displacement engines all the way back to the Cadillac 4-6-8 engine. The Gen V engine run a new hydraulic motor mount we are gearing up for, it is designed to handle the additional vibrations. Modern AFM engines control the throttle for you so you don't have to step on the gas when you go from a 8 to a 4. Also the ECM drops and brings in cylinders one at a time so the trnasition is not abrupt. Overall AFM can help mpg a little but it won't help a heavy JK too much because it only operates under a light load.
    Mind Blown!...haha. Great information and if I have enough pennies and my 3.6 takes a turn for the worst I know where I'm going. Plus you are only a few hours away!

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