Hydraulic Assist Question (on highway)

[JeepFan]

This is very similar to what I'm dealing with currently. I noticed some play in the wheel recently, so I had my wife turn the wheel while I watched the steering components. Sure enough, I could see the sector shaft splines turning just a tad before it engages the pitman arm (almost as if the pitman arm is too big). The pitman also seemed low ont he sector shaft. I'm also running a synergy sector shaft brace and upon closer inspection, I noticed the top of the sector shaft brace was directly touching the bottom of the pitman arm - seemed odd to me. I checked the large nut which ties it altogether and could easily turn it with a cresent. I later discovered there is supposed to be a mopar lock washer installed between the pitman arm and sector shaft brace. Rather than pay $12 for the factory mopar lock washer, I'm hoping to find one at ACE soon, then bolt and torque it all back together. My hope is the lock washer and the proper synergy sector shaft brace of 150 ft lbs will push the pitman arm higher up on the sector shaft and result in a much more tight fit.

Wow, that's a scary situation! What happened to the original lock washer? I did some research on this back when I was having the issue and found out the factory service manual recommends replacing the nut and lock washer any time the pitman arm is removed. Also, the torque setting for the Power Steering Gear Pitman Shaft Nut is 185 ft lbs. Most standard torque wrenches only go to 150. I ended up renting a 20-250 ft lbs. torque wrench from my local auto parts store to get the job done.

I'm running EVOs sector shaft brace for added protection. EVOs brace includes a special heavy duty nut and washer.


Pic is from EVOs web site.

 

[jnabird333]

What is a good way to completely evacuate the system to change fluid from the ATF4? (Sorry! I'm pretty damn handy in the shop, but this steering system is not my strong suit.) The only way this seems doable is to open every port and make a mess.... :naw:

 

[jeeeep]

What is a good way to completely evacuate the system to change fluid from the ATF4? (Sorry! I'm pretty damn handy in the shop, but this steering system is not my strong suit.) The only way this seems doable is to open every port and make a mess.... :naw:

disconnect the ground from the battery.
use a turkey baster to remove as much of the fluid as you can from the reservoir.
undo the hose at the reservoir from the ram that feeds back to the reservoir. plug the hole with a cap or something so the fluid will not flow out.
put the hydro hose in a container to mminimize the mess
with the front tires off the ground, fill the reservoir and turn the wheels side to side same as when bleeding the system. keep the reservoir full and keep going until the old fluid is flushed out

have something on the ground to absorb the mess, it's messy

 

[jnabird333]

disconnect the ground from the battery.
use a turkey baster to remove as much of the fluid as you can from the reservoir.
undo the hose at the reservoir from the ram that feeds back to the reservoir. plug the hole with a cap or something so the fluid will not flow out.
put the hydro hose in a container to mminimize the mess
with the front tires off the ground, fill the reservoir and turn the wheels side to side same as when bleeding the system. keep the reservoir full and keep going until the old fluid is flushed out

have something on the ground to absorb the mess, it's messy

LOL, this is pretty much what I was thinking.... especially the last part :doh:

Thanks

 

[Rebel JK]

I would open the lowest point (supply to ram) run hose into 5 gallon bucket and secure with zip tie let it drain with res cap off. Then refill and repeat a few times cycling the steering up on the lift. Then reconnect and use brake bleeding technique at supply line to ram (the messy part) to avoid introducing more air to system. Repeat with engine/ pump running at least a few more times.
Maybe one of the more experienced guys can chime in.

Edit- Jeeeep has some great advice.

 

[jk12blk]

Wow, that's a scary situation! What happened to the original lock washer? I did some research on this back when I was having the issue and found out the factory service manual recommends replacing the nut and lock washer any time the pitman arm is removed. Also, the torque setting for the Power Steering Gear Pitman Shaft Nut is 185 ft lbs. Most standard torque wrenches only go to 150. I ended up renting a 20-250 ft lbs. torque wrench from my local auto parts store to get the job done.

I'm running EVOs sector shaft brace for added protection. EVOs brace includes a special heavy duty nut and washer.

Pic is from EVOs web site.

The original installer did not install the lock washer. :grayno: I spoke to Synergy and it was not as bad as I thought. The lock washer adds tension to keep things tight, but I was not in any real danger. Worse case, I think things would have continued to get more sloppy, but I don't think there would have been any major failure.

 

[jnabird333]

Bumping this up as it has my attention again. I still haven't salved it but I haven't done much about it yet either. Now that my wheeling season is pretty much over I hope to put some effort into it. Here is an update:

I no longer have ATF4 fluid. I converted to traditional power steering fluid (no change). I added a PSC cooler (no change). I am still running the factory reservoir which after talking to Eddie might be the issue, but I also wonder if something is going on with the pump.

To recap: My hydro assist works very well at any speed below 60 (~<2500RPM) after a length of time that seems to be faster when it's hot out I begin to get play in the steering wheel. In the beginning I can pull of the highway and cycle the steering lock to lock a few times and have firm steering again for some time. In long drives this becomes less and less effective. My last drive to PA I drove for 4 hours before this began. On the way home it only took an hour. I am not loosing fluid and it appears to look okay even when this is going on. Everything in the steering system is tight.

If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them before I start throwing parts at this problem.

 

[CrazyLarry]

Bumping this up as it has my attention again. I still haven't salved it but I haven't done much about it yet either. Now that my wheeling season is pretty much over I hope to put some effort into it. Here is an update:

I no longer have ATF4 fluid. I converted to traditional power steering fluid (no change). I added a PSC cooler (no change). I am still running the factory reservoir which after talking to Eddie might be the issue, but I also wonder if something is going on with the pump.

To recap: My hydro assist works very well at any speed below 60 (~<2500RPM) after a length of time that seems to be faster when it's hot out I begin to get play in the steering wheel. In the beginning I can pull of the highway and cycle the steering lock to lock a few times and have firm steering again for some time. In long drives this becomes less and less effective. My last drive to PA I drove for 4 hours before this began. On the way home it only took an hour. I am not loosing fluid and it appears to look okay even when this is going on. Everything in the steering system is tight.

If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them before I start throwing parts at this problem.

Im going through the same issue as you and although im in the middle of figuring out the issue I did eliminate stuff. First off im running the redneck ram with a cooler using atf4. Using atf4 is fine when using the factory pump and res btw. Like you my steering randomly goes loose. I was almost certain it whas my box and sent it off to WTO for them to have a look. When I unistalled my box I installed my friends spare box which was stock with no hydro ports. When I ran his spare box the steering never went loose and drove great. I was thinking WTO had the whole box apart when they rebuilt and ported it so maybe they messed something up hell theyre human. Well got a call from WTO and they said they couldnt find anything wrong with the box and that theyre sending it back. I figured maybe its the ram seeing all my steering compenents are in good shape. When I received my box back on thursday I installed it with the hydro ports capped off so no hydro. Sure as shit the steering is tight as hell and drives great. This weekend I will reinstall my ram and if the loose steering comes back it can now be traced to the ram. FYI the steering started getting loose after I swapped my 6" ram (which worked perfect) to a 7" so this ram may very well be defective. Im pretty confident the sytem was bled properly as its my 5th time installing a hydro system with no issues and im also pretty sure fluid was not leaking out of the ram ports or ram itself. Somebody above commented on checking air hoses for leaks which doesnt sound like a bad idea as well. Ill be reinstalling my ram maybe this weekend so ill be sure to report back if thats the cause

 

[jnabird333]

FYI the steering started getting loose after I swapped my 6" ram (which worked perfect) to a 7" so this ram may very well be defective.

Well isn't that interesting... I have the 7" ram as well. While my receipt shows I got a 8" ram shimmed to 6.75" travel (which is needed) they sent me a 6" ram. When I wasn't able to properly set up my stops they send me the 7" ram. I never had the issue with the 6" ram, but then again I never drove very far.

 

[CrazyLarry]

Well isn't that interesting... I have the 7" ram as well. While my receipt shows I got a 8" ram shimmed to 6.75" travel (which is needed) they sent me a 6" ram. When I wasn't able to properly set up my stops they send me the 7" ram. I never had the issue with the 6" ram, but then again I never drove very far.

That is interesting. Not looking forward to going through the bleeding process only to find out its the problem then take it off bleed the stock system while waiting for a new ram to bleed again. PIA :banghead:

 

[jeeeep]

if your steering is firm at low speed I doubt it is the pump.
check the alignment of your reservoir it should be a little bit higher than the pump so you get a continuous feed. also, not knowing the size of the reservoir, but if it's stock I'd be inclined to agree with Eddie that it's the reservoir. if it is not big enough to supply a continuous volume it won't keep up with the pump at the higher speeds so it'll cause cavitation and feel like its loose.
you could try getting all the tires off the ground take the cap off the reservoir and have someone hold the rpms up and turn the wheels as you watch the fluid, you may be able to see it dropping very low or cavitating

 

[CrazyLarry]

if your steering is firm at low speed I doubt it is the pump.
check the alignment of your reservoir it should be a little bit higher than the pump so you get a continuous feed. also, not knowing the size of the reservoir, but if it's stock I'd be inclined to agree with Eddie that it's the reservoir. if it is not big enough to supply a continuous volume it won't keep up with the pump at the higher speeds so it'll cause cavitation and feel like its loose.
you could try getting all the tires off the ground take the cap off the reservoir and have someone hold the rpms up and turn the wheels as you watch the fluid, you may be able to see it dropping very low or cavitating

That would make sense being that the 7" ram would extract more fluid from the res at full lock than a 6". However, if this was the case wouldnt everyone with the normal jk stroke ram (6.75 - 7") with stock res and pump have this issue. I know many running the wto setup with the 7" ram that do not have this issue

 

[jnabird333]

if your steering is firm at low speed I doubt it is the pump.
check the alignment of your reservoir it should be a little bit higher than the pump so you get a continuous feed. also, not knowing the size of the reservoir, but if it's stock I'd be inclined to agree with Eddie that it's the reservoir. if it is not big enough to supply a continuous volume it won't keep up with the pump at the higher speeds so it'll cause cavitation and feel like its loose.
you could try getting all the tires off the ground take the cap off the reservoir and have someone hold the rpms up and turn the wheels as you watch the fluid, you may be able to see it dropping very low or cavitating

I am thinking it is this, but it is tough to check. I have tried but as I mentioned it only happens after long runs (hours sometimes) above 2500 RPM. I might have to bite the bullet and just buy a reservoir. The only reason I haven't is the need to switch to a CAI and I know too many with unwarranted engine issues after the CAI was installed. It seems odd to me that the reservoir would be okay for a while and then become an issue. Also, why would cycling from lock-to-lock a few times fix the problem (for at least a while)?

 

[jeeeep]

did you change the pump pulley or any other parts beside the ram?

 

[jnabird333]

did you change the pump pulley or any other parts beside the ram?

Sorry, I just saw your reply. I have a WTO modified gear, 7" Ram. Then I added a PSC cooler because it was getting too hot and I thought it could be a culprit here. It fixed the hot fluid heat but didn't change this. I wondered about foaming (which ATF4 is worse for) and switched to normal PS fluid. still no change.

I just went to wash my Jeep and (I don't know why I didn't think of this before) drive 60mph in 4th and I was able to get it to do it in about 5 miles. At least I have a way to test without hours on the interstate.

 

[jeeeep]

Sorry, I just saw your reply. I have a WTO modified gear, 7" Ram. Then I added a PSC cooler because it was getting too hot and I thought it could be a culprit here. It fixed the hot fluid heat but didn't change this. I wondered about foaming (which ATF4 is worse for) and switched to normal PS fluid. still no change.

I just went to wash my Jeep and (I don't know why I didn't think of this before) drive 60mph in 4th and I was able to get it to do it in about 5 miles. At least I have a way to test without hours on the interstate.

While I think a reservoir may help, I'm beginning to think it may not completely solve the issue. It works fine at slower speed but once you get up to speed you have issues. Have you considered putting a larger pulley on the pump to slow it down at the higher speeds?

I'll measure my PSC pulley on my 2010 and the stock pulley on my 2015 to compare.

 

[jnabird333]

While I think a reservoir may help, I'm beginning to think it may not completely solve the issue. It works fine at slower speed but once you get up to speed you have issues. Have you considered putting a larger pulley on the pump to slow it down at the higher speeds?

I'll measure my PSC pulley on my 2010 and the stock pulley on my 2015 to compare.

Even if that were a fix, its not a fix... I barely have enough pressure at idle in a parking lot as is. Luckily I have a manual and can idle up fairly easy.

 

[jeeeep]

Even if that were a fix, its not a fix... I barely have enough pressure at idle in a parking lot as is. Luckily I have a manual and can idle up fairly easy.

so at idle in a parking lot when you say barely enough pressure, is your steering really stiff you have to idle up to make it easier?

 

[jnabird333]

Yup, just off idle it comes to life. I shouldn't have used pressure... I know its a volume thing more than pressure. If I'm in 2nd in a parking lot the idle will drop lower than normal and it is tough to turn until I clutch and rev or go to first.

But honestly, I rarely drive this Jeep in parking lots. It's more of a toy

 

[jeeeep]

okay now it makes more sense, you're dealing with the same thing I dealt with after I had my PSC installed. on mine I did find places where the hose was leaking but in the end PSC ended up giving me a different pump with a larger pulley that was also ported to flow more at lower speeds which also fixed the issue at higher speeds