Long arm upgrade, worth it?
- Thread starter deezus
- Start date
No problemWas board this morning waiting for the lifts to open up. Really was just here to see if there were any new videos and this caught my eye as I have run both setups on the same coilovers. Anyhow, see ya'll for #8 sometime around 2018!
Well, thanks for stopping by and sharing your vast knowledge and expertise. Not like I've ever "run both setups on the same coilovers" so I appreciate learning about how 37" tires would be the reason why anyone would want to run long arms. Of course, maybe if I had worked on a bazillion JK, I might have known better.
Actually, I think the expert is saying that you won't feel the benefits of long arms unless you're running 37's.
You are welcome
Never claimed to be the the most experienced Jeep person on here. Or the only one who has ran short arms and long arm setups. Just pointing out a simple answer on what I have experienced. I personally would not see any reason to put LA on anything less that 37's. But if you have a reason, interested to hear why it would be a good upgrade over SA for this size tire.
Just thought it was interesting you harped his ass. Maybe I read it different...
Never claimed to be the the most experienced Jeep person on here. Or the only one who has ran short arms and long arm setups. Just pointing out a simple answer on what I have experienced. I personally would not see any reason to put LA on anything less that 37's. But if you have a reason, interested to hear why it would be a good upgrade over SA for this size tire.
Just thought it was interesting you harped his ass. Maybe I read it different...
WJCO
Meme King
When did anyone get their ass 'harped?' :thinking: I read it as Eddie mostly agreeing with Trail Jeeps from the beginning, but just making a clarification for EVERYONE READING that long arms and articulation aren't the same thing.
Ummm, maybe to correct your suspension geometry and bring it back closer to stock after installing a tall enough lift that could benefit from it. You know, maybe to help reduce the arc that they travel in and help provide a better ride on pavement or when bombing across the desert. That is why long arms were designed in the first place. Tire size can influence how tall of a lift you choose to run but they are not the determining factor as to whether or not you could benefit from long arms. But hey, I haven't worked on a bazillion JK's so what would I know.
Funny, all I said to him was that "shocks will still be your limiting factor and a long arm kit won't change that when it comes to 'crazy articulation'. That being said, I'd have to agree with most of what you said." Clearly, I was harping on his ass.
Benito
Caught the Bug
Simple geometry kind of shows that long arms will give you better travel and a little more that is useful. see image below:
suppose the Black line is the frame
the purple line is a long arm
the green line a short arm
the blue line a fully extended shock
the dotted green line is the radius at which the axle will travel with a short arm
the dotted purple line is the radius at which the axle will travel with a long arm
and the blue dotted line shows where the end of the shock horizontally travel when fully extended
i think that we can all agree that the bottom of the shock will follow the path of the either the Green dotted line or the Purple dotted line depending on what type of arm we are using, so we only care about where a fixed length (the fully extended shock) pivots towards when connected to another fixed length (the control arm). as seen in the diagram, and i am going to choose my words wisely, you get better travel with a long arm than a short arm which results in more useful (vertical) travel. i feel like the difference is negligible for our rigs, and for a lot of us the cost will outweigh the benefit of the small amount of additional travel.
Edit: shock still limit the amount of travel, but if you use the same shock, the long arm will make better use of it
suppose the Black line is the frame
the purple line is a long arm
the green line a short arm
the blue line a fully extended shock
the dotted green line is the radius at which the axle will travel with a short arm
the dotted purple line is the radius at which the axle will travel with a long arm
and the blue dotted line shows where the end of the shock horizontally travel when fully extended
i think that we can all agree that the bottom of the shock will follow the path of the either the Green dotted line or the Purple dotted line depending on what type of arm we are using, so we only care about where a fixed length (the fully extended shock) pivots towards when connected to another fixed length (the control arm). as seen in the diagram, and i am going to choose my words wisely, you get better travel with a long arm than a short arm which results in more useful (vertical) travel. i feel like the difference is negligible for our rigs, and for a lot of us the cost will outweigh the benefit of the small amount of additional travel.
Edit: shock still limit the amount of travel, but if you use the same shock, the long arm will make better use of it
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WJCO
Meme King
I definitely like seeing the graph, but still not seeing how you're getting the conclusion of better travel. Once the shock is fully extended, travel is done, regardless of what arm is there. Also, the bottom of the graph shows 1/2" more travel with the LA arc opposed to the SA arc, but with a tire on, pebbles on ground, etc, is really even going to be measureable? :idontknow:
Benito
Caught the Bug
The long arm gives you straighter up and down travel making better use of the fixed length of a fully extended shock, with a short arm you have more lateral movement of the axle. Like I stated in my post the amount of travel that you gain is negligible for our type of vehicle and isn't worth the cost.
The only problem with your simple geometry is that it's 2 dimensional. What you're not taking into account is how the axle will swipe at a full flex but then, that would be splitting hairs. You did choose your words carefully though and you are correct in that long arms will make better "use" of your travel but of course, that wasn't what we were originally talking about.
Ddays
Hooked
Not getting this statement. Lateral movement is controlled by the track bar, no? And its attached to the axle and frame. How would LA's affect this movement?
Benito
Caught the Bug
I should have said Horizontal,
Ddays
Hooked
Gotcha - I was like :thinking:
Hey guys, I had a short reaction to a post earlier in the thread. I felt like it was a dig, but I should have held my tongue (or fingers) and let it pass. I know it wasn't personal.
I was in no way implying anyone doesn't know their stuff. Eddie is certainly a wealth of knowledge and has valuable experience and his experiences and feedback should definitely be taken into account.
What I will say is that we often have different opinions. There any many ways to skin the seven slot cat. I do think that the combined experience of the team here at Trail Jeeps speaks volumes and we have a lot to contribute. Our answer may not be the one that works for you, and that is ok with us! We are working on branching out and getting more involved in all aspects of the Jeep community, online and elsewhere locally.
To clarify what I meant in my original post. Of course shocks dictate how much travel you get, but when you start really trying to attain really long travel numbers with a short arm kit, you end up with the axles moving toward the center of the vehicle, causing all kinds of less than desirable side effects you then need to address. When you install a long arm kit, it keeps wheel travel more vertical travel and cleans up the suspension as it cycles, helping to minimize some of the things you are up against when going for big suspension travel. Again, I'm sorry, I should have clarified.
I was in no way implying anyone doesn't know their stuff. Eddie is certainly a wealth of knowledge and has valuable experience and his experiences and feedback should definitely be taken into account.
What I will say is that we often have different opinions. There any many ways to skin the seven slot cat. I do think that the combined experience of the team here at Trail Jeeps speaks volumes and we have a lot to contribute. Our answer may not be the one that works for you, and that is ok with us! We are working on branching out and getting more involved in all aspects of the Jeep community, online and elsewhere locally.
To clarify what I meant in my original post. Of course shocks dictate how much travel you get, but when you start really trying to attain really long travel numbers with a short arm kit, you end up with the axles moving toward the center of the vehicle, causing all kinds of less than desirable side effects you then need to address. When you install a long arm kit, it keeps wheel travel more vertical travel and cleans up the suspension as it cycles, helping to minimize some of the things you are up against when going for big suspension travel. Again, I'm sorry, I should have clarified.
Just to add to that point, I specifically stated "I'd have to agree with most of what you said." I was simply trying to clarify what you yourself had said and that was "a long arm kit really won't get you much more than what you have now". By no means was I trying to make a "dig" at you.
No need to imply what you have clearly stated in the past and that is the information on here is a "tangle of misconceptions" and people here should be "following your advice about what they need". Me, I'm just a guy with a forum and one that hasn't had the pleasure of working on a bazillion JK's.
And, I disagree. For better or for worse, there's only so many ways you can make a 4-link suspension with a track bar work. In the end, you will always be limited to the laws that govern its design and function. Now, when it comes to things like ride comfort, that is for sure an area where we all have a different opinion.
And I think that the combined experiences of all the members here on WAYALIFE speaks volumes and in spite of what you think, they contribute a wealth of knowledge and often back it up with photos and videos. Those who don't, typically fall under the scrutiny of others. That accountability helps to weed out the BS.
And, when they go off what was recommended here on WAYALIFE instead of "following your advice about what they need", you'll just have to give them that, "I told you so conversation" you said you hate having to give.
Imagine that, I totally agree with everything you just said about long arms. Hell, I run long arms with just 3.5" of lift. Funny thing is, in your original post, you were trying to make a case for "short arms" and said, "factory style JK arms are long enough to give you a great ride up to about 4- 4.5" of lift and can get you into a 12" travel shock". At that height, I can't say that I agree and I purposefully left it alone being that's were we get into things like "ride quality". As we all know, ride quality is 100% subjective and open to opinions.
deezus
New member
So, i could do a long arm with a 3.5" lift? Didnt know that....what would be the pros and cons?
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Mike_JK_Houston_711
New member
pros are just an overall better ride. returns all your geometry back to stock or close to it.
cons - more expensive kits, requires additional costs in labor unless you do it yourself. one more con is that long arms COULD tend to make contact on ledges which could hang you up at times. i've seen a few rigs dragging their long arms on obstacles, where stock arm rigs on same lifts walked up with no contact. but this is a con to be less worried about, really.
deezus
New member
Does it make it higher? Also noticed on some upgrade kits that there's 3 arms for the rear? I'm talking RKs upgrade kit with the rear link.
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Mike_JK_Houston_711
New member
No longs arms don't make your rig any higher. Ride height is only determined by your springs or coils.
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