Recent Shooting and Discussion

[jesse3638]

Crazy to read that a young female student was one of the shooters. That is definitely atypical of these tragedies. It sounds like a very brave young man put himself in harm's way (and sadly lost his life) trying to protect his fellow classmates.

Irrespective of the gun debate, I am stricken by the fundamental disregard for others that is pervasive in our society. That disregard seems to be getting worse by the day. If society doesn't figure out how to address the issue, we are screwed. The instrumentalities of death may change as laws change, but the amount of death and disregard for life likely will not.

I cannot help but think that the proliferation of social media cannot be ignored when discussing the degradation of our society, and I have recently read at least one scholarly article presenting a correlation between social media (in 2011, Twitter doubled it users, Facebook exceeded 750 million users, and Instagram had been out for one year) and the yearly number of mass shootings (demonstrably higher from 2011-2018 than in the preceding 8 year period of 2003-2010.)

Agreed, and social media has created more tribalism, not less.

In the wake of the recent shootings my coworker and I were having this exact conversation how the media and social media (gaming is now a form of social media too) seems to have made people almost numb to just how precious a human life is. To walk in and senselessly kill someone whether you feel wronged by said person or people or to do it for notoriety and infamy is crazy. I was a senior in high school the year Columbine happened. I had many discussions with classmates right after and none of us thought something like that could or would ever happen. We looked around at our classmates wondering if anyone would even try that . Even the "Goths" (students who wore black clothing, dyed their hair black, listened to metal...haha) thought it was crazy. The weapon of choice is not the issue, it's much larger than that. The stats you posted are indicative of that. George Orwell may have been onto something well before his time...

Even though guns were used in this school attack and many other attacks, we are noticing that guns are not the only way to mass kill humans (reference China knife school attacks and driving large vehicles in crowded areas, etc), this is hardly a gun issue. Guns are simply the mechanism that is utilized. We are fooling ourselves if we think that simply making all, or any type of gun illegal will solve this issue.

This is school attack/violence issue, not a school ‘shooting’ issue, by labeling it that we are not being true to ourselves of what the larger problem is.

Why aren’t our schools protected like court houses or other political buildings, shit even my water reclamation/treatment facility is more secured. We refuse to implement the needed protective measures to harden these soft targets. How easy is it to walk on school grounds and just poke around. Once we let a terrorist conduct an attack on a school then maybe we will start securing them, kind of like locking cabin doors.

Mental health is an issue as well, but again if the perpetrator is not even in the system or seeking help then that’s not a preventive measure. The best hope is to harden these targets, no we don’t have to make them look like Gitmo. Israel has some how found a way to harden their schools and not make it look like a combat outpost. Sure we could do the same.


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This has been said many times throughout this thread. In Sharkey's last post he says this pretty clearly. It's much larger issue than guns.

 

[JK_0311]

Even though guns were used in this school attack and many other attacks, we are noticing that guns are not the only way to mass kill humans (reference China knife school attacks and driving large vehicles in crowded areas, etc), this is hardly a gun issue. Guns are simply the mechanism that is utilized. We are fooling ourselves if we think that simply making all, or any type of gun illegal will solve this issue.

This is school attack/violence issue, not a school ‘shooting’ issue, by labeling it that we are not being true to ourselves of what the larger problem is.

Why aren’t our schools protected like court houses or other political buildings, shit even my water reclamation/treatment facility is more secured. We refuse to implement the needed protective measures to harden these soft targets. How easy is it to walk on school grounds and just poke around. Once we let a terrorist conduct an attack on a school then maybe we will start securing them, kind of like locking cabin doors.

Mental health is an issue as well, but again if the perpetrator is not even in the system or seeking help then that’s not a preventive measure. The best hope is to harden these targets, no we don’t have to make them look like Gitmo. Israel has some how found a way to harden their schools and not make it look like a combat outpost. Sure we could do the same.


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[Sharkey]

^^^ Did you mean to repost the same thing you did an hour or so ago?!?

Anyway, you should really research what gun ownership is like in Israel (read my response to your earlier post for the cliff notes). The absence of gun violence in schools over there has nothing to do with hardening their schools.

 

[Brute]

Even though guns were used in this school attack and many other attacks, we are noticing that guns are not the only way to mass kill humans (reference China knife school attacks and driving large vehicles in crowded areas, etc), this is hardly a gun issue. Guns are simply the mechanism that is utilized. We are fooling ourselves if we think that simply making all, or any type of gun illegal will solve this issue.

This is school attack/violence issue, not a school ‘shooting’ issue, by labeling it that we are not being true to ourselves of what the larger problem is.

Why aren’t our schools protected like court houses or other political buildings, shit even my water reclamation/treatment facility is more secured. We refuse to implement the needed protective measures to harden these soft targets. How easy is it to walk on school grounds and just poke around. Once we let a terrorist conduct an attack on a school then maybe we will start securing them, kind of like locking cabin doors.

Mental health is an issue as well, but again if the perpetrator is not even in the system or seeking help then that’s not a preventive measure. The best hope is to harden these targets, no we don’t have to make them look like Gitmo. Israel has some how found a way to harden their schools and not make it look like a combat outpost. Sure we could do the same.


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Please stop.

Next you’re going to tell me we need to have armed guards in the movie theater...at every concert venue...at the supermarket...and that’s the solution.

Yes, you take away the guns, someone will figure out another way to kill people. But I’ll take my chances with a knife or axe wielding person over someone armed with a couple Glocks or an AR...

The fact is guns are just too easy to get...period.

 

[Sharkey]

Please stop.

Next you’re going to tell me we need to have armed guards in the movie theater...at every concert venue...at the supermarket...and that’s the solution.

Yes, you take away the guns, someone will figure out another way to kill people. But I’ll take my chances with a knife or axe wielding person over someone armed with a couple Glocks or an AR...

The fact is guns are just too easy to get...period.

I find it very ironic that he used Israel as an example given their gun laws, per capita gun ownership, and the fact that Israel DOESN'T arm teachers.

 

[WJCO]

In the wake of the recent shootings my coworker and I were having this exact conversation how the media and social media (gaming is now a form of social media too) seems to have made people almost numb to just how precious a human life is. To walk in and senselessly kill someone whether you feel wronged by said person or people or to do it for notoriety and infamy is crazy. I was a senior in high school the year Columbine happened. I had many discussions with classmates right after and none of us thought something like that could or would ever happen. We looked around at our classmates wondering if anyone would even try that . Even the "Goths" (students who wore black clothing, dyed their hair black, listened to metal...haha) thought it was crazy. The weapon of choice is not the issue, it's much larger than that. The stats you posted are indicative of that. George Orwell may have been onto something well before his time...

I've had some similar talks with co-workers and friends in the recent day. It's a fucked up time we live in.

And as Sharkey brought up with social media, I also believe that plays a huge role in this. Not just the way people act on there, but it seems nowadays kids have instant access to violence, pornography, etc all day long. It's in their faces all the time. Even older high school students have lost a level of innocence and naivety that definitely was around when I was in high school.

 

[Sharkey]

^^ Where can you get pornography all day long and how much does it cost? (Asking for a friend)

 

[fiend]

^^ Where can you get pornography all day long and how much does it cost? (Asking for a friend)

Umm, the internet. For free.


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[Sharkey]

Umm, the internet. For free.


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Damn. I knew my friend was doing something wrong.

 

[JK_0311]

I’m referencing Israel because they actually enact policies that work and learn from their incidents. Gun control won’t work. That is a small part of a large problem. I am aware of Israel’s gun ownership, they are licensed. I have been there and seen their security measures first hand and see how they hardened soft targets. I am not advocating armed security everywhere, just where we hold precious like schools and courts. Knives and rental trucks are easier to get and can cause just as much harm. Any talk of gun restrictions or banning is knee jerk reaction and will do little to nothing to stop or mitigate these incidents while infringing upon freedoms. End point.


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[Edwrds]

What’s your opinions on the upbringing with some of the children? I understand that in some cases mental illness plays a part.


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[jesse3638]

I've had some similar talks with co-workers and friends in the recent day. It's a fucked up time we live in.

And as Sharkey brought up with social media, I also believe that plays a huge role in this. Not just the way people act on there, but it seems nowadays kids have instant access to violence, pornography, etc all day long. It's in their faces all the time. Even older high school students have lost a level of innocence and naivety that definitely was around when I was in high school.

Yep, long gone are the days of sneaking the VHS tapes out of the parents closets while someone kept watch...haha.

My wife took a position with a different school in her district this year as a behavioral interventionist. The school she is at is a K-8 school and is just like the ones in Stand and Deliver, Lean on Me, Criminal Minds, etc. She has done a lot of research into social and emotional skills to help them develop better ways of resolving conflict and things like that. Most kids aren't developing them like previous generations. A lot of this is thought to be because of the use of electronics and the instant gratification you get from them. Video games, youtube, facebook, and the list goes on and on. There is a reason there is so much emphasis limiting screen time. When I grew up it was just the TV. I remember my mom coming in and making us go outside saying it was going to rot our brains. It's not really rotting them its causing them to not develop in a health manner.

 

[Sharkey]

I’m referencing Israel because they actually enact policies that work and learn from their incidents. Gun control won’t work....

Wait, Israel enacts policies (gun control) that works yet the US could never enact policies (gun control) that would work?!? I’m a little confused there. Or is it just the policies of “hardening soft targets” that works in Israel and not the rest of their firearm policies?

Regardless, if you think our “freedoms” are absolute then there probably isn’t much point in continuing the conversation.

 

[jesse3638]

What’s your opinions on the upbringing with some of the children? I understand that in some cases mental illness plays a part.


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My mom used to come up behind me and smack me up side the head when I was teasing my little brother. I seemed to turn out ok...haha. This aside without going into a long rant lets just say parenting has changed a lot and at times not for the better. I was taught right and wrong and given consequences for my poor choices. This taught me to try harder to make the right choices in life even if they aren't the easiest ones. I do my best to do this with my kids too. I see a lot of parents these days wanting to be "friends" or just giving their kids the freedom to make their own choices or not correcting behavior which is rude and disrespectful. Drives me crazy. I mean how do you use affluenza as a legal defense after driving drunk and killing 4 people.

 

[JK_0311]

Wait, Israel enacts policies (gun control) that works yet the US could never enact policies (gun control) that would work?!? I’m a little confused there. Or is it just the policies of “hardening soft targets” that works in Israel and not the rest of their firearm policies?

Regardless, if you think our “freedoms” are absolute then there probably isn’t much point in continuing the conversation.

Again, not referencing their individual laws just policies (like hardening soft targets, locking cabin doors) that they implement. Different country with a different laws altogether. I am looking at it in terms of protecting not preventing, because prevention will never work. While we are talking about banning guns (like ARs and glocks, all handgun’s and shotguns, because they are all the same really) why don’t we just ban gun violence? Because it won’t work, that’s my point. We need to look at protecting by force protection and security measures than banning things that will do little to nothing.


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[Edwrds]

My mom used to come up behind me and smack me up side the head when I was teasing my little brother. I seemed to turn out ok...haha. This aside without going into a long rant lets just say parenting has changed a lot and at times not for the better. I was taught right and wrong and given consequences for my poor choices. This taught me to try harder to make the right choices in life even if they aren't the easiest ones. I do my best to do this with my kids too. I see a lot of parents these days wanting to be "friends" or just giving their kids the freedom to make their own choices or not correcting behavior which is rude and disrespectful. Drives me crazy. I mean how do you use affluenza as a legal defense after driving drunk and killing 4 people.

I agree I had consequences for my actions. Usually getting my ass whipped I turned out fine. Pretty sure most can agree. Parents can’t discipline or choose not to. I believe most of the bullshit is the upbringing or lack of.


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[Honor2afault]

Again, not referencing their individual laws just policies (like hardening soft targets, locking cabin doors) that they implement. Different country with a different laws altogether. I am looking at it in terms of protecting not preventing, because prevention will never work. While we are talking about banning guns (like ARs and glocks, all handgun’s and shotguns, because they are all the same really) why don’t we just ban gun violence? Because it won’t work, that’s my point. We need to look at protecting by force protection and security measures than banning things that will do little to nothing.


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Perhaps, and this is a loooong shot, we as a society should stop blaming inanimate objects. Of course, this would mean taking a hard look in the mirror and Understanding that the blame lies with the person staring back at you.
You can place a gun, knife, missile, nuke on a table and they will never harm anything or anyone.
People kill people.
You want to curb violence? Start by Teaching your and/or The children, not placating them, which happens to be the norm in our society.
Stop whining like a bunch of butt hurt pussies that seem to think you're entitled to something outside of paying taxes and dying and Teach your children!!!
Try teaching them morals, self respect, dignity and integrity. A good way is to Be the example, not do as I say not as I do.
Speak too your children not at them. Discipline your children, and yes you can accomplish this without mistreating them. Earned is earned and time out is a joke.
If you find all this just too much to absorb or accept, feel free to take you ass to your favorite fast food restaurant, walk into the kitchen, bury your face in the fryer and inhale deeply. Just once.
It has taken, roughly, 60 years to get to this point. It will not fix itself overnight or easily.
<rant over>

 

[Sharkey]

Again, not referencing their individual laws just policies (like hardening soft targets, locking cabin doors) that they implement. Different country with a different laws altogether. I am looking at it in terms of protecting not preventing, because prevention will never work. While we are talking about banning guns (like ARs and glocks, all handgun’s and shotguns, because they are all the same really) why don’t we just ban gun violence? Because it won’t work, that’s my point. We need to look at protecting by force protection and security measures than banning things that will do little to nothing.


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Who is talking about banning guns? I don’t recall anyone on here saying guns should be banned. I know I certainly have never said as much.

Most (I think around 80%) of the mass shootings occur with guns legally purchased (don’t confuse that with meaning the shooter was the legal purchaser of the gun). Given that fact, I find it laughable that people are unwilling to consider the potential impact of better controlling who can lawfully purchase a firearm, the potential impact of stricter burdens on an owner to ensure that no one else gets possession of the firearm after the lawful sale, and the potential impact of truly holding the owner of a weapon liable if their weapon falls into the wrong hands due to their negligence.

Unfortunately, the “from my cold dead hands” / “any law infringes on my God given right to own a firearm” crowd is going to likely be the downfall of reasonable gun ownership in this country.

It’s unfortunate that there isn’t one easy solution to the school violence issue. However, I find it maddening that a segment of our society is unwilling to consider the aggregate effect of implementing many possible smaller solutions (including discussing where we can do better with gun laws).


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[Brute]

Again, not referencing their individual laws just policies (like hardening soft targets, locking cabin doors) that they implement. Different country with a different laws altogether. I am looking at it in terms of protecting not preventing, because prevention will never work. While we are talking about banning guns (like ARs and glocks, all handgun’s and shotguns, because they are all the same really) why don’t we just ban gun violence? Because it won’t work, that’s my point. We need to look at protecting by force protection and security measures than banning things that will do little to nothing.


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I’m not advocating the banning of guns...I grew up with guns, both for hunting and the fact my father was in the military and a LEO...but I think the time has come (a long time ago) to seriously consider making it much harder to acquire guns.

You can’t harden every target...those kids that shot their fellow students went to that school, and one of them was a classmate of my niece ...that’s how they were able to get so far into the school before they started. Not sure if they got the guns from their parents, or the 18 yo bought them recently...it doesn’t matter, the point is it’s too fucking easy to get guns in the USA.

We’ve had mass shootings at church’s, synagogues, movie theatres, outdoor concerts, clubs...why? Because it’s too fucking easy to get guns....

I’m buying a Benelli M4 12 ga & a Sig .45...why?... because for the idiots of this country, it’s too fucking easy to get guns...

When they show the pictures of the dead teenagers, shot in one of our schools, close your eyes for a second...and imagine that is your son or daughter with a hole in their chest...only because it was too fucking easy for someone to get a gun

 

[HighwayTrout]

Tragic. Saddened to see this happened at your nieces school Brute.