EVO bolt on coil over vs EVO DTD vs ?
- Thread starter SmokinV10
- Start date
SmokinV10
Caught the Bug
I have to say that "turbineguy" is one of the few guys who had the guts to fight through all the lure of the shiny offroad jewelry known as coilovers and just go with a decent suspension for the right reasons. Good for you brother!
Since you are a newer member here, welcome to the forum! Now don't be offended, as I don't pull any punches when answering a question, I deal in facts, comedy and more facts. As Wayoflife stated earlier, in one way or another, the EVO bolt-on coilover is actually better than any other bolt-on suspension available for a JK. And the Double Throw Down, that is infinitely better than the bolt-on system. But as everyone else has asked; what's the intended use for the jeep? More than likely, living in Houston, TX. you don't need either system......unless your rig will visit our insane wheeling locations out here in the west a few times a year or you just want to go for the over-the-top "look at my jeep's suspension" effect which the DTD does every time. No matter what you decide the reason that you "need" bolt-on coilovers or the DTD, here are some other things to consider if you decide before your purchase:
1- Either system requires additional things to be done to the jeep, and much more so with the Double Throw Down. Things like maintenance will increase, the need for aftermarket drive shafts, removal of stock exhaust/addition of new re-routed aftermarket exhaust, cost of install and fabrication work. It's NEVER just buying shocks at the level of a system like the DTD front and EVO Lever Rear DTD (Which is the same system we race on in the Ultra 4 series/King of Hammers). Again, this is why Wayoflife speaks highly of the DTD, he uses the hell out of his the way it was intended. In fact, the only guy with more miles on the DTD than Wayoflife, is the inventor of it, Mel Wade.
2- If it's going to be a Parking lot Prowling Princess, or the Triple "P" rig, congrats! You will be admired, and hated, all at the same time. Take the time to at least learn every possible specification and capability of the system you just spent $12k on, so you seem like you have been off road. Being capable of regurgitating numbers and measurements and stuff can be quite impressive when stopped by someone asking a question about your vehicle as you are walking into Costco.
3- If the jeep IS for off road, what are your capabilities as a driver. Be brutally honest, leave the ego out of the equation. What have you run before, not just trails, but suspension as a benchmark? Would you even know that an EVO bolt-coilover or DTD is better than what you had before? Either of these systems provides your JEEP much more capability than you can ever imagine, I say again, your JEEP. Heck, a stock jeep gets most people into bad spots they never should have gone. If you plan on building up to the DTD, it will give the jeep the ability to go places that previously only tube buggies and race cars were venturing. My jeep is simply waiting for a better driver to come along, since I am definitely the jeep's limiting factor, and after 30 plus years of wheeling I am still learning new ways to get into deeper trouble
4- If you don't have access to this kind of terrain, a Double Throw Down is really kind of pointless. And for what it's worth, it is the bypass shocks piggybacked to the coilovers that make driving through this kind of terrain at 50, 60, 70 mph or above possible, not just having coilovers.
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5- If you are going for the Triple "P" effect, and there is nothing wrong with that, study all forums and threads so people know you have been offroad and learned all the major wheeling spots and larger events by name, pick up a magazine subscription ("JP" if you want to be well rounded, "Crawl" if you want to sound hardcore, "Overland Journal" if you want to come across as a worldly and snobbish) Then just keep your rig clean and polished. Take lots of photos from different angles in different places and try to post a different shot every couple of weeks so you can let your forum friends know you "use" your rig often.
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6- Lastly, just to prove that you don't need coilovers just watch any Wayalife film, especially the ones covering the JK Experience since many of the jeep's that attend have traditional coil spring suspensions.....although that is becoming less and less due to the availability of quality coilover set ups like what EVO mfg offers. In the photo below, this two door on 3-4" coil springs went everywhere my DTD rig went, in fact it recovered me after I rolled my jeep over when my rear coilovers "unloaded" while going down a waterfall. You don't need the best suspension to go to bad places, but having the best supension can get you to the bad places quicker and more comfortably.
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Thanks for taking the time to make that extremely well thought out reply. With all that said, I want to take my time to provide the best contextual information I can:
What do I, will I use my Jeep for? Well that's a bit of a loaded question that I can not even answer. I have spent my fair share of time offroading with friends in a variety of different platforms... Jeeps, custom built bronco's and even offroad racing with Raptors and trophy trucks. I have seat time, and have enjoyed my second hand experience with this sport/hobby but I am admittedly new to it. As a life long gear-head I have always wanted a great offroad vehicle, but havent started a build of one until now. That being said, I know my procivity with my cars. None of my "toys" have been garage queens- well until they were taken to a point where they are unstreetable. They ultimately end up on the "extreme" end of the sprectrum. I just sold my 1200 hp Viper that was both road raced and drag raced heavily. The car saw its share of broken engine, drivetrain, and supension parts...with each replacement part being a learning experience on what I should have done the first time. The car was used for what it was built/designed for, but I learned quickly that I should buy the best I can afford the first time around. I tend to like to exploit the last living capability of the vehcile. In the context of the jeep, I am trying to "guess" what it will be used for before actually using it in that context. As an example, I have another hobby where I am a competitive long range marksman. When I started shooting, I remember asking questions where many guided me to start with a base remington 700 and a good Leupold scope. Instead I opted for a full custom action, custom barrel, custom stock competition rifle with a Schmidt and Bender scope. I never regretted that decision. Other than rechambering that rifle in different calibers, that same rifle is still a key option as a go-to rifle for competition. I have used that rifle up to the limits of its ability and fully endorse the idea of "buy once cry once".
This is my first jeep. Its a 2014 JKUR and has spent most of its life in pieces in my garage having the next item bolted on to it. It has seen a few local trails but nothing would warrant the DTD or even the Bolt on kit. What I ultimately envision is that this Jeep will see trails every other month and spend many weekends on ranch properties for hunting etc. I would love to be able to remotely keep up with my "raptor buddies" on open terrains at speed which is currently impossible (may be lacking in power). It may be commuted in on weekends and some week days, but it will never be a daily driver. I do, however plan on taking the jeep once a year to a "big" offroad trip. Current plans are to take it to the Rubicon Trail next year and Moab the year after. I cant really squeeze more time that that into this hobby as work comes first and I need to dedicate enough time to stay competitive with my other hobbies. I want to be able to drive the Jeep there and have a decent chance being able to drive the Jeep back. As with anyone else, bling is nice, but nothing tht Im willing to pay thousands for.
I am aware of the additional fabrication costs and have already invested in new driveshafts and have rerouted the exhaust to accommodate the likelihood of a DTD suspension. As I am new to the entire offroad scene, I am trying to gather sufficient feedback that I will be able to buy the best system possible wihtout over-buying. Obviously that is subjective as different folks have different budgets for "discretionary" items and have different perspectives on what is ultimately necessary. Everyone's feedback has been helpful on guaging the correct system to go forward with. The last thing I want to do is buy the bolt on system, come back from a "big trip" and have it for sale at a 30-50% reduced price only to be buying the DTD because I could have "used" that capability.
Jeeper Jr.
New member
For comparisons sake, how fast can you go (in mph) with a DTD vs Bolt-ond? I know this is different from place to place and driver to driver but perhaps it's the closest we can get to a statisical comparison.
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Sent from my SCH-I545 using WAYALIFE mobile app
Jiffy05
New member
I'm going to guess fast for bolt on and really fast for DTD. I really don't have a clue because I don't have either but wanted to say that.
JAGS
Hooked
I think part of this question would depend on what axles you are running and what else you have going on with your rig. Speed will be absorbed by your weakest point. EVO 1 does insane speed, but also is running PR80s and is built to race.
I mean how fast do want/need to go? How often do you want to rebuild your COs?
You could always build for the DTD but only run single bypass. Then if that is not good enough, upgrade to double bypass??? All depends again on what you want out of your Jeep.
- Jason
GCM 2
New member
Well that all depends on power train being run, as well as the terrain. Wiith the stock 3.8L and Rubicon transfer case in 4H my jeep will top out around 60'ish being push really hard. If I run in 2wd only, and the front hubs unlocked, I have been able to get closer to 70mph in the right environment. The suspension will handle going faster, much faster, but my jeep does not have the horses needed to obtain it. Another example is EVO1, much bigger motor, more power and bigger diameter bypass shocks that allow higher speeds for longer duration without compromising shock rebound/compression degradation. In EVO1 Mel is able to hold speeds over whoops and ruts that would destroy us riding in the race car before the suspension decides to ever give out, thus another example of the occupants of the vehicle are really the limiting factor. That's what we'll designed and engineered suspension does for you.
As for the bolt-on EVO set up, I have only driven EVOlander (which runs this) on the roads, never off road, so I cannot comment. But I can assume as its no where near what the race inspired DTD can achieve.
Ok, so this above steers me to believe you have another option available to you not yet previously mentioned. (edit: JAGS mentioned this above, my bad) Why not consider doing all the brackets and mounts necessary for the Double Throw Down, but just do the 12" EVO spec coilovers and NO BYPASS SHOCkS. It will save you a bit of coin initially, you still get an incredible amount of capability (more than the bolt-on) with this set up, time to figure out if the sport is something you want to hang out in, and if so, than later you just bolt in the extra bypass shock at each corner since there is a place already there for them. In fact many guys have taken this route.
Many of us have been where you are. I started in offroading, moved into motocross, drag racing and road course racing, but never really left offroading. Once I got connected with Mel at Off Road Evolution years ago, and some of the guys here on the forum, I pretty much left all the pavement stuff behind to sink my cash into this bottomless pit of vehicles.
Most of the guys here will steer you towards the "pay more initially, buy once" theory.
Oh, and if you want to come close to competing with your Raptor buddies just forget the RIPP supercharger now! Do a small block V8 swap, its the only hope, chance and prayer you have. Unfortunately when you do everything to a JK needed to accomplish beating up a Raptor in its own environment, you will have effectively purchased two Raptors worth of Jeep and aftermarket parts. :icon_crazy: It can be done though. If I want to beat up on Raptors, I have them follow me to any wash filled boulders :thumb:
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SmokinV10
Caught the Bug
Perhaps this will help. I prefer not to ever ditch my Dana 44's and go to a pro rock 60 or 80....won't rule it out as possible but unlikely. I am running a fully gussetted, sleeved, and trussed front axle with RCV shafts, &4:88 yukons. Rear has the rcv shafts and that's it.
ttfhell
New member
Bolt on's all day if that is the plan. You will break shit going DTD speeds with stock axles.
OverlanderJK
Resident Smartass
Your front axle is probably already bent. Better start saving.
SmokinV10
Caught the Bug
Do others concur with this? Is the vast majority running DTD sporting an extra $15K in new F&R D60's?
SmokinV10
Caught the Bug
This may be a good option. Is it truly "bolting on another bypass shock" or does it involve a bit of selling the 12" EVO spec CO's?
Christarp
Member
Yes. It's pretty silly to spend all the coin on DTD and not upgrade your axles to be honest.
SmokinV10
Caught the Bug
Think pro rock 44's are sufficient? I'm cringing as my bill creeps up to $20k. Lol
MTG
Caught the Bug
What size tires? Oh and it's more than $20K.
I agree with Russ. If you are going to keep stock axles, I wouldn't get the DTD/Evolever unless you eventually plan to upgrade the axles. Especially if you are serious about keeping up with your raptor buddies.
turbineguy
New member
Thanks a lot for your response. I really love your bluntness/honesty. I will try and respond to your points.
Your comments though did reinforce the point that going with a decent coil lift now instead of going with a bolt on coilover lift is the wiser choice in my situation.
Thank you. It's hard to stay reasonable... and I often fail.
I already have aftermarket shafts and axles (PR44 and RJ 60), though I may re-upgrade my axles at some point in the next two or three years. Additional maintenance is no big deal. Install/fab/cost is all achievable. I travel the world inspecting power plants, so my jeep is either parked at the airport (220 days a year), on the trails here in Idaho (30-40 days a year), or running errands around town.
No mall crawler here. Jeep is covered in Idaho pin-striping. I still have a lot to learn, so I'm not ready yet to talk the nuts and bolts of a DTD coilover system for sure.
Honesty, my capabilities are advanced beginner, though since we have so many trails around here, they are steadily improving along with the capability of my jeep. This is one of the reasons why I put off any rash CO purchase for a year or two. As far as getting into trouble, I always wheel with my club (which is very active). My lifestyle/job means that if my jeep was to break for a week or so, no big deal.
Right now I prefer to go slow and climb rocks, but that's probably because going fast with the current setup isn't fun. If I did have a DTD though, we have hundreds and hundreds of miles of BLM desert and canyon land to play on.
Nice to have a good looking rig, but I really just want to wheel. Here is a recent photo of my rig though, since we all like to show off. This is before the install of my 3.5 Metalcloak suspension.
Once again, this reinforces my decision to wait. I think my rig is pretty capable right now. More than strong enough to hit the Rubicon and Moab and the local trails. I still have a few upgrades to do before I think about CO's, ie PSC hydro assist and a cage mainly.
Basically, I'm blessed to be at a point in my life that I can buy semi-expensive toys and use them. My jeep has gone through several revisions. I find that I use it to its capabilities, improve it, then just use it a little bit harder. I have probably wasted a few thousand dollars with multiple upgrades, but honestly I am fine with that. I love doing upgrades to the jeep... trying new things. I don't sweat it if to much if I take a temporary detour or spend on an interim set-up and waste a bit of money.
And finally, this is just a rough idea of the sort of stuff we are running here (all photos taken within one hour of Boise). We do have some harder buggy type trails (40" tires and lots of body damage type trails) as well which I would like to try eventually, but then again there is always something harder. The club also is planning a trip to the Rubicon and to Moab.
Once again, thank you for your input GCM.
Your comments though did reinforce the point that going with a decent coil lift now instead of going with a bolt on coilover lift is the wiser choice in my situation.
Thank you. It's hard to stay reasonable... and I often fail.
I already have aftermarket shafts and axles (PR44 and RJ 60), though I may re-upgrade my axles at some point in the next two or three years. Additional maintenance is no big deal. Install/fab/cost is all achievable. I travel the world inspecting power plants, so my jeep is either parked at the airport (220 days a year), on the trails here in Idaho (30-40 days a year), or running errands around town.
No mall crawler here. Jeep is covered in Idaho pin-striping. I still have a lot to learn, so I'm not ready yet to talk the nuts and bolts of a DTD coilover system for sure.
3- If the jeep IS for off road, what are your capabilities as a driver. Be brutally honest, leave the ego out of the equation. What have you run before, not just trails, but suspension as a benchmark? Would you even know that an EVO bolt-coilover or DTD is better than what you had before? Either of these systems provides your JEEP much more capability than you can ever imagine, I say again, your JEEP. Heck, a stock jeep gets most people into bad spots they never should have gone. If you plan on building up to the DTD, it will give the jeep the ability to go places that previously only tube buggies and race cars were venturing. My jeep is simply waiting for a better driver to come along, since I am definitely the jeep's limiting factor, and after 30 plus years of wheeling I am still learning new ways to get into deeper trouble
Honesty, my capabilities are advanced beginner, though since we have so many trails around here, they are steadily improving along with the capability of my jeep. This is one of the reasons why I put off any rash CO purchase for a year or two. As far as getting into trouble, I always wheel with my club (which is very active). My lifestyle/job means that if my jeep was to break for a week or so, no big deal.
Right now I prefer to go slow and climb rocks, but that's probably because going fast with the current setup isn't fun. If I did have a DTD though, we have hundreds and hundreds of miles of BLM desert and canyon land to play on.
Nice to have a good looking rig, but I really just want to wheel. Here is a recent photo of my rig though, since we all like to show off. This is before the install of my 3.5 Metalcloak suspension.
Once again, this reinforces my decision to wait. I think my rig is pretty capable right now. More than strong enough to hit the Rubicon and Moab and the local trails. I still have a few upgrades to do before I think about CO's, ie PSC hydro assist and a cage mainly.
Basically, I'm blessed to be at a point in my life that I can buy semi-expensive toys and use them. My jeep has gone through several revisions. I find that I use it to its capabilities, improve it, then just use it a little bit harder. I have probably wasted a few thousand dollars with multiple upgrades, but honestly I am fine with that. I love doing upgrades to the jeep... trying new things. I don't sweat it if to much if I take a temporary detour or spend on an interim set-up and waste a bit of money.
And finally, this is just a rough idea of the sort of stuff we are running here (all photos taken within one hour of Boise). We do have some harder buggy type trails (40" tires and lots of body damage type trails) as well which I would like to try eventually, but then again there is always something harder. The club also is planning a trip to the Rubicon and to Moab.
Once again, thank you for your input GCM.
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Irish JK
Caught the Bug
^^Well said. :clap2:
LOL!! Hell, I've been able to trash my factory front axle with just the bolt-on coil overs :crazyeyes:
Yup :yup:
Running bolt on coil overs on my 2012, I am now running a ProRock 44 front thanks to me trashing the factory axle and am getting a full float ProRock 60 installed in the rear. With my DTD's, I run a ProRock 60 up front and ProRock 80 in the rear. Honestly, it would be a mistake not to upgrade your axles with a DTD.
SmokinV10
Caught the Bug
Revisiting my entire purchase decision based on the input from this thread. Currently stretching to budget to include PR44's or trail 60's front immediately and PR60's rear over the next 3-4 months and some amalgamation of both long arms and a coilover system nearly immediately.
A few more questions:
1) has anyone run the DTD front suspension on its own and run the bolt on rear co separately hoping to upgrade later? Not sure how smart this is both financially and functionally. Some have mentioned running the DTD brackets in the front wihtout the bypass shocks. The challenge here is that there wouldnt be any bumpstop?
2) Another option is the do the full DTD front and the lever back with without the bypass? Again is this a silly/pointless way of approaching this issue?
3) Could just do the full bolt on kit and maybe would end up happy as a clam but I am trying to "buy once cry once" and have a hunch I'd likely end up with the full enchilada sooner or later....
The Trail 60 is only available for the rear axle and it is a good option if you're trying to save some money. Being that you plan on running 37's, a PR44 will do the job well up front. I personally would not recommend running 38's if only because it's an odd size and harder to find a spare in a pinch.
I would not do this being that your front will be able to significantly out perform your rear and you will be wanting to upgrade your rear the first time you take your Jeep out. IF anything, I would do bolt on up front and EVO lever in the rear as the rear bolt on coil overs do not offer as much travel as the fronts as is.
This is absolutely the way I would go. DTD brackets and EVO lever with just single coil overs. In fact, I have done it in the past and it is still a better setup than the bolt on coil overs. If you decide to upgrade later, all you have to do is add on the bypass shocks to complete the kit but, you may find it not necessary to do.
Honestly, being that you live in TX and don't really know what you want, I would seriously consider this route if for no other reason than the fact that you are working on a budget. IF you decide you want better later down the road, the bolt on kit is reversible and you can always sell it to help fund your next upgrade. But, if I could guess, you'll be happy with just the bolt on kit.