Metal cloak coils?

[jnabird333]

I just got caught up here (to be honest I skimmed a bunch) but I read some things I though I would comment on.

Spring length with relation to droop/compression:

Metalcloak has designed their springs to reach full droop and stay seated. It is true that the ultimate droop one can achieve is limited to the shock length, but it's tough to deny that a spring that long enough to stay seated at full droop will "reach" easier than a spring that is short and requires retainers. The fact that it needs retainers means that it is being stretched and is actually resisting the droop.

In general a spring that has a high pitch and low turn is far more likely to become over-compressed than one that has more turns and a lower pitch. You will notice that the MC coils are made to this low pitch, high turn type of design. They claim that their coils can be compressed to a dead compression and return to full length, (while they don't suggest it). In the picture below you can see that when using the six-pack shocks and over-line fenders they get close.


Shock length and up-travel:

I read a comment that was made about up-travel being limited from the shock body once you had one long enough to capitalize on the droop capability. I completely agree with this, but this is why Metalcloak designed the six-pack shocks. These shocks essentially have two rods in one body. Allowing for an almost 3:1 extended:compressed ratio. There is no other mono tube type shock that can do this and it is their key to capitalizing on both the possible up-travel and droop.

I admitted earlier that I was not an expert at suspension design. However, in the research I've done they seem to have put a decent amount of though into their products. Sure there are things I don't like, (The rear track-bar bracket is VERY tall, they don't use or suggest a d-link flip, and I'm not sure I buy into the lower spring bucket concept they advertise), but all-in-all they seem to have put some engineering into their products as opposed to simply slapping something together.

Who knows... I might have just drank the magic cool-aid. they are selling But I thought I would share my thoughts.

 

[TheStick]

I just got caught up here (to be honest I skimmed a bunch) but I read some things I though I would comment on.

Spring length with relation to droop/compression:

Metalcloak has designed their springs to reach full droop and stay seated. It is true that the ultimate droop one can achieve is limited to the shock length, but it's tough to deny that a spring that long enough to stay seated at full droop will "reach" easier than a spring that is short and requires retainers. The fact that it needs retainers means that it is being stretched and is actually resisting the droop.

In general a spring that has a high pitch and low turn is far more likely to become over-compressed than one that has more turns and a lower pitch. You will notice that the MC coils are made to this low pitch, high turn type of design. They claim that their coils can be compressed to a dead compression and return to full length, (while they don't suggest it). In the picture below you can see that when using the six-pack shocks and over-line fenders they get close.
View attachment 63911

Shock length and up-travel:

I read a comment that was made about up-travel being limited from the shock body once you had one long enough to capitalize on the droop capability. I completely agree with this, but this is why Metalcloak designed the six-pack shocks. These shocks essentially have two rods in one body. Allowing for an almost 3:1 extended:compressed ratio. There is no other mono tube type shock that can do this and it is their key to capitalizing on both the possible up-travel and droop.

I admitted earlier that I was not an expert at suspension design. However, in the research I've done they seem to have put a decent amount of though into their products. Sure there are things I don't like, (The rear track-bar bracket is VERY tall, they don't use or suggest a d-link flip, and I'm not sure I buy into the lower spring bucket concept they advertise), but all-in-all they seem to have put some engineering into their products as opposed to simply slapping something together.

Who knows... I might have just drank the magic cool-aid. they are selling But I thought I would share my thoughts.

Good stuff. Another question regarding the up-travel situation. For someone who is running 35's and standard fenders on a 2.5" lift, I am assumming this does not come into play since they will need bump stops of a certain length that will limit up-travel before the shock becomes the limiting factor. Would people agree this is a correct assumption?

 

[jnabird333]

Good stuff. Another question regarding the up-travel situation. For someone who is running 35's and standard fenders on a 2.5" lift, I am assumming this does not come into play since they will need bump stops of a certain length that will limit up-travel before the shock becomes the limiting factor. Would people agree this is a correct assumption?

I agree with your assumption. All three JKs I know of running 35s with full fender flares and 2.5" (or so) have increased their bump and two still get a little rub when flexed a bunch.

 

[funfred]

Good stuff. Another question regarding the up-travel situation. For someone who is running 35's and standard fenders on a 2.5" lift, I am assumming this does not come into play since they will need bump stops of a certain length that will limit up-travel before the shock becomes the limiting factor. Would people agree this is a correct assumption?

I would agree with it. The bump stop should be the limiting factor, otherwise you just pound your shock, bottom out the coil and/or have conflict with steering components.

The question then is, where do you set that limit for max up travel?

The limitations come in two areas that I'm aware of, tho' there may be more.

First, when do you start digging into your fender? You could remove it, chop it or install a high clearance fender.

Second, when do the suspension/steering control arms/links start to receive interference from the frame, etc? The only way I can imagine simply figuring that out is to drop your coils and shocks and manually(with a jack) cycle your axles through their articulation range. Take measurements to determine the bump stop necessary, then find the springs and shocks that work within those confines of compression, plus a little so as not to bottom out the shock and spring.

The downside to maximizing up-travel with most standard replacement type shock offerings is loss of droop. Shocks just are not capable of extreme compression AND extension. With modified mounts, you could use a longer shock, then the compression is less of a concern as you've extended the distance between the mounts. But, to where are you gonna extend them?
No one wants the lower any lower. Going higher requires cutting into the body. Both would require bracketry.
MC developed their six-pack to overcome the limitations of replacement shocks for this reason.

I, personally, would love to keep my soon-to-be-delivered Jeep as low as possible while still providing lift. I'm not, however, interested in the six-pack shocks. My intention is to do as I mentioned and cycle the suspension through its range. Once I have the baseline of clearance, I can determine which components will best suit my purposes. I intend 35" tires.

Easier said then done. Taking into consideration the vast range of springs, their heights and rates, requires that I also know how much my Jeep weighs front and rear. Since I'm not overly interested in rock crawling, extensive droop is secondary...but I would like it.

The biggest obstacle is information. Few care to advertise the specs on their springs, you have to do your own homework. Once you've determined the spring you need, then you find the shock to control it.

As a side, "The best you've ridden is the best you know!" - Paul Thede.
Paul is a suspension guru known throughout the competitive motorcycle industry both dirt and street.

 

[jnabird333]

^^^ FWIW: I did extensive research on shocks and their travel as I too was not interested in the 6-packs. The OME shocks have a nice range of travel. In fact, you need to move to a remote reservoir Bilstein to get similar travel. (They have the gas portion in the remote reservoir so compression is gained.) See below:



Like you I plan to cycle everything and set my bumps accordingly. I also have the EVO rock-star skids in the rear so I will have to see how that comes into play. I may need to use the Synergy upper mount relocation brackets to raise them.

 

[wayoflife]

Metalcloak has designed their springs to reach full droop and stay seated. It is true that the ultimate droop one can achieve is limited to the shock length, but it's tough to deny that a spring that long enough to stay seated at full droop will "reach" easier than a spring that is short and requires retainers. The fact that it needs retainers means that it is being stretched and is actually resisting the droop.

I think you need to do a little more research. The spring retainers only hold the bottom of the coil in place, NOT the top and so nothing is stretched or restricting anything. Not that this is a good solution to too much droop but, what you have assumed is just not right.

In general a spring that has a high pitch and low turn is far more likely to become over-compressed than one that has more turns and a lower pitch. You will notice that the MC coils are made to this low pitch, high turn type of design. They claim that their coils can be compressed to a dead compression and return to full length, (while they don't suggest it). In the picture below you can see that when using the six-pack shocks and over-line fenders they get close.

You'll forgive me but, this is a static shot. A hard full bump can make it go solid and that will translate into a harsh hit. Not something I would want in my ride but, to each their own.

Shock length and up-travel:

I read a comment that was made about up-travel being limited from the shock body once you had one long enough to capitalize on the droop capability. I completely agree with this, but this is why Metalcloak designed the six-pack shocks. These shocks essentially have two rods in one body. Allowing for an almost 3:1 extended:compressed ratio. There is no other mono tube type shock that can do this and it is their key to capitalizing on both the possible up-travel and droop.

That would have been me back on post number 55. Funny how you chose to see that but skip over the fact that I also said that the six pack shocks would address this concern. Oh, and remind me again how much these shocks cost again? Sorry for the money, I'd rather put my money into something that actually work better, can be dialed in and set to how I like and without having the coils go solid. Of course, that would be coilovers.

I admitted earlier that I was not an expert at suspension design. However, in the research I've done they seem to have put a decent amount of though into their products. Sure there are things I don't like, (The rear track-bar bracket is VERY tall, they don't use or suggest a d-link flip, and I'm not sure I buy into the lower spring bucket concept they advertise), but all-in-all they seem to have put some engineering into their products as opposed to simply slapping something together.

I don't know if anyone ever said that they didn't put a decent amount of thought into what they've made. I do however question if any of it is a good idea, needed or worth the cost. But, that's just me, what do I know

 

[olram30]

i got lost at the virtual bucket, but another drawback to running long coils is when you go on a steep incline and your front coils unload and push away from the axle, and on a decline your rear pushes you away and run the risk of flopping over. if they are your cup of tea, run them.

 

[wayoflife]

Another thing I think you guys need to consider is that your axle articulates in an arc. Big droop will cause your front shocks to hit your frame. I have run OME long travel shocks and this was a problem I encountered with all the normal single rate coils I had tested. The contact was also enough to damage the shocks.

 

[cozdude]

Another thing I think you guys need to consider is that your axle articulates in an arc. Big droop will cause your front shocks to hit your frame. I have run OME long travel shocks and this was a problem I encountered with all the normal single rate coils I had tested. The contact was also enough to damage the shocks.

anyway to get around the shock hitting the frame like that?

 

[pvanweelden]

Nemesis lower shock mounts

 

[jnabird333]

Nemesis lower shock mounts

Yes, or make your own as I have.

 

[pvanweelden]

^ funny you should say that to me

still working on mine :thumb:

 

[jnabird333]

I think you need to do a little more research. The spring retainers only hold the bottom of the coil in place, NOT the top and so nothing is stretched or restricting anything. Not that this is a good solution to too much droop but, what you have assumed is just not right.

It looks like I do :yup: This wasn't my understanding and I haven't installed a lift that used retainers so I didn't know any better. Poor assumption on my part :doh:

That would have been me back on post number 55. Funny how you chose to see that but skip over the fact that I also said that the six pack shocks would address this concern. Oh, and remind me again how much these shocks cost again? Sorry for the money, I'd rather put my money into something that actually work better, can be dialed in and set to how I like and without having the coils go solid. Of course, that would be coilovers.

I did admit to skimming . Apologies for not catching that. I agree on the cost and the point that the money would be better spent on a coil-over conversion. I have only had the privilege to ride in one JK with a set of EVO coil-overs and it was the bee's knees!

 

[NFRs2000NYC]

Question.....are evo coilovers completely 100% bolt on? I will definitely agree with Eddie that coilovers (for jeeps or sports cars) are the way to go, but a lot of people don't want to do any welding, cutting, or relocating (leased vehicles, daily drivers that you keep for a few years, etc), so I was curious if it's an "apples to apples" comparison?

 

[Atch]

Question.....are evo coilovers completely 100% bolt on? I will definitely agree with Eddie that coilovers (for jeeps or sports cars) are the way to go, but a lot of people don't want to do any welding, cutting, or relocating (leased vehicles, daily drivers that you keep for a few years, etc), so I was curious if it's an "apples to apples" comparison?

They are bolt in but there is drilling & cutting involved.

 

[NFRs2000NYC]

They are bolt in but there is drilling & cutting involved.

Ok, and one more....the drilling and cutting....can everything be brought back to 100% stock if need-be (re-use stock suspension?)

 

[Atch]

Ok, and one more....the drilling and cutting....can everything be brought back to 100% stock if need-be (re-use stock suspension?)

Yes but you would have to leave the rear EVO rockstars & trackbar relocation bracket attached to the rear axle.

 

[TheStick]

Since we are on the subject. What is a realistic out the door price of the bolt on coil overs bottoms up? I.e. Once you include control arms, trackbars, etc.

 

[MTG]

Since we are on the subject. What is a realistic out the door price of the bolt on coil overs bottoms up? I.e. Once you include control arms, trackbars, etc.

LOL! It's the "etc." that makes it hard to quantify. But you can price it all out online.

 

[OverlanderJK]

Bolt ons are $3600 F/R.